Style And Success Secrets With Fashion Icon Rachel Zoe

[00:00:00] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we’re sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Let’s dive in. I could not be more excited to welcome Rachel Zoe to the podcast today. Rachel is a legendary fashion stylist. She styled pretty much every A list celebrity like Kate Hudson, Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Lawrence, Cameron Diaz, I could go on, but then that would be the entire episode. She was the star of the Rachel Zoe project on Bravo, which I was Obsessed with, she’s the founder of the ZO report.

[00:00:41] She is the founder of CuraTour, which is a subscription style box service. And she hosts the Climbing in Heels podcast, where she interviews amazing women about how they found success while being their whole selves. And today she is going to help us find our personal style and share so many secrets of business and life and she’s going to convince me to have a kid. So stay tuned for that.

[00:01:06] All right, Rachel Zoe, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:09] RZ: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

[00:01:12] LM: I’m so excited to have you. I’ve been such a huge fan for years. The Zoe project, the Rachel Zoe project was probably one of my favorite TV shows.

[00:01:20] RZ: Oh, I appreciate that.

[00:01:21] It was a lot of work. It was a lot. It was a lot of work because it was, I think, one of the first, I think it just, there wasn’t really a playbook on how to do it. So it was just, but I kind of feel like that’s been my entire. Career is just figuring it out as they go

[00:01:38] LM: and we’re gonna get into all of your career stuff in a little bit But I wanted to start off with fashion because obviously you are an expert in fashion And I think a lot of people listening and very much myself are trying to figure out how to look cute So i’d like you to help us look cute.

[00:01:54] So my first question is You have such a distinct sense of personal style and you’ve helped so many clients over the years find their distinct personal style. How can we find our own personal style and not be subject to trends that feel like they’re going faster and faster every single month?

[00:02:11] RZ: You know, it’s super interesting.

[00:02:14] I’ve never really believed in trends and trend following. I’ve always believed in take whatever the trend is and interpret it for yourself. If skinny jeans are like, The biggest no ever, but that’s all you feel best in just wear them. Who cares? You’re not going to get arrested. I think the days of fashion do’s and don’ts for me are way gone.

[00:02:40] And to be honest, even in the days where there were fashion do’s and don’ts, I still didn’t really believe in them because I think fashion and style in general is such a subjective Thing overall, you can have innate style. You can be born with it, but you can also learn to have it. A lot of that is about confidence and really trial and error and experimenting and getting feedback and really how it affects your confidence.

[00:03:07] So I think in finding your style. Choose the person that you’re most obsessed with their style that you relate to the most. Like, are you a Sienna Miller person? So you’re like the more bohemian, like Chloe girl, or are you someone that loves like, you know, Nicole Kidman? And you’re always going to be in something structured severe.

[00:03:29] You just start to play with it. And then you just start to be like, I look ridiculous. I need to take this off. Or you walk out the door and you’re like, I feel really good. You know, and then you go out one night and everyone’s like, Oh my God, you look amazing. Like you will start to. Really take that in and you will really take in the feedback and your overall feeling in what you’re wearing.

[00:03:53] That’s how you ultimately achieve your personal style. It’s just wearing different things, feeling really good in it, getting feedback from people you actually trust, not people that are trying to ruin your life that tell you look good when you don’t.

[00:04:07] LM: I have so many questions on that. First of all, I have to know, has somebody that you’ve styled or you yourself ever ended up on one of those, like, don’t lists in an outfit that you’re like, no, that outfit was fantastic.

[00:04:19] RZ: You know, when I first started styling. My goal when I moved to LA was to try and somehow merge the worlds of fashion and Hollywood, because there was such a huge disconnect. It was like New York laughed at LA. LA was scared of New York. Paris laughed at everyone. And Milan was somewhere in the middle. I just love fashion.

[00:04:43] And I would like, look at things and want to put them on a client. And I learned that certain things were better left to photo shoots and magazines and runways versus what should go on a red carpet. After a while, what I found was that my clients had had the most confidence. They actually didn’t care.

[00:05:02] They were like, this is what I feel the best in. At the time, there was so much scrutiny from the media. There was so much like attack. Like what were they thinking? What are the like, and you can’t really get away with that anymore. Quite honestly. Thank God. But in that day, there was people who are not fashion people, and yet they are annihilating people in couture on the red carpet.

[00:05:30] And that really never sat well with me. But what I did do because it felt like a responsibility for me was to be very honest with my clients. And I would say, Okay. Cause it’s a Rachel. What’s your favorite? I would say this is my favorite by a landslide. This is going to garner the most fashion attention, like Elle’s, but the mainstream media is not going to understand this.

[00:05:54] Most likely they’re going to think it’s too edgy. They’re not going to get the train. They’re not going to get the, this, they’re not going to get the asymmetry at the top, but most of the time you can’t please both sides. You can sometimes, which I’ve experienced where unanimously everyone loved it. But there was times where like.

[00:06:12] The fashion world was obsessed with it and the mainstream tabloids and stuff were like no way and It made me crazy because I knew they were wrong. And I would say that my clients didn’t give a fuck because I would arm them with the, this may not be understood. And then some of the sort of like, More insecure were affected by it, you know, and I thought that was terrible because, you know, people going out there spending days and days and fittings and hair makeup and spray tans and eyebrows and all the things, and they go out into the world and throw themselves and are very vulnerable, you know, in front of the world to see, and then just get criticized in like, The most gorgeous couture gown you ever saw.

[00:07:03] It makes no sense. So the answer is I’ve had probably in my career that I can remember that were like big moments that like the fashion world love, but the mainstream media didn’t

[00:07:17] LM: can you name them or no?

[00:07:20] RZ: No, I probably shouldn’t, but they were two really big celebrities in very, very major designer moments. One of them didn’t give a shit and one of them did.

[00:07:33] And she was like sad. And it made me so sad. I was like, this is crazy. You looked like a princess. Like it was stunning.

[00:07:41] LM: What if the style that we’ve identified, we don’t feel like looks good on our body. So like you said, Sienna Miller, Santa Miller is one of my style icons. I absolutely love her. And I feel like she’s like tall and willowy and I’m shorter and curvier. So when I try to emulate that style, I don’t feel like tall.

[00:07:58] RZ: I’ll have you know, she’s not tall.

[00:07:59] LM: Wait, really?

[00:08:00] RZ: Yeah. She’s stunning. She gives tall. But she’s not tall.

[00:08:03] LM: Nobody, ever like Hollywood celebrity that I’ve met, I’m like, Oh my gosh, you’re my size. It makes me so happy. They’re all so much shorter than you think.

[00:08:10] RZ: Oh, always. Always. Other than like Jennifer Lawrence. I feel like there’s like a few people Nicole Kidman is tall. Nicole Kidman is tall. There’s a handful of tall. But everybody else is teeny tiny.

[00:08:19] LM: Okay. So, but I feel like she has this like willowy body. And I feel like when I try to emulate that style, it doesn’t look effortless and willowy on me.

[00:08:28] So what advice would you give to somebody who’s like, I love this style, but I don’t love how it looks on my body.

[00:08:33] RZ: Okay. So that happens a lot. There’s a lot of women that I’ve worked with personal and professionally that are like, yeah, yeah. I’m obsessed with that, but I can’t wear that.

[00:08:43] So what you do is you like, for example, let’s just take Sienna Miller with like some amazing Chloe moment with like ruffles and volume and where someone else might look like a bird, right?

[00:08:54] I’m not a good bird, not a, not a chic bird, but I do think that there are certain body types that can carry things differently. And I’ll never forget when I was working with Salma Hayek, I had also been working with other women who did not have sort of that more hour glassy curves. They were more straight.

[00:09:14] And then the first thing she said to me is baby, I cannot I’m wear something without my waist or without my, and the thing is she was exactly right. And so I think as a stylist and just someone who would, I guess, advise anyone with their personal style, it goes back to like, you can’t take something that looks great on someone with no curves.

[00:09:37] And expect it to look the same on someone with curves. So what you do is you take the elements of those things that you love, like the ruffles and the frills and the whatever, and you find something that has a shape, a waist. You can even just add a belt, you know what I mean? You could add a belt, but I do think that you have to really know your body, right?

[00:09:56] Because Even just taking pregnancy, right? I’ve had women that only wanted to show their legs in pregnancy and then other women were like, cover my legs. There’s no one size fits all. There’s nothing that works the same on all of us. So I think it’s taking that trend and what you love about it and saying, I’m going to take what I can with this.

[00:10:15] Yeah. but I’m going to give myself a shape or whatever, you know, or maybe you do the shorter version. So you look taller, but that’s a myth also because I’m not tall and I only wear long. So, you know,

[00:10:28] LM: how tall are you?

[00:10:30] RZ: Oh my God. I’m without heels, which is only when I’m sleeping five, four.

[00:10:36] LM: That’s tall to me.

[00:10:38] RZ: It is not tall.

[00:10:40] LM: The average height of the American woman, I believe, is five foot three and three quarters.

[00:10:43] RZ: So then call me average. I’m average. I am totally average. I am totally average and have never been happy about it. So. I wear like six inch heels on the bag.

[00:10:55] LM: I can’t sacrifice comfort enough to wear heels all the time, but I would like to be taller very much.

[00:11:02] So the flattering thing is an interesting thing to me though, because I hate the idea that we’re conforming to these societal standards of what an ideal body is like, Oh, your stomach should look this way. Your arms should look this way. But also I hate the idea of people not feeling comfortable in what they’re wearing.

[00:11:18] So I never kind of know how to approach. Should we be disguising things we don’t like? Should we be trying to like lean into them? How do you think about that with you or with your clients?

[00:11:28] RZ: You know, it’s super interesting because I will say I think One of the greatest effects, in my opinion, just from observing it over the years that the Kardashians have had on society, I think is really empowering women with curvier bodies to show them and not hide them.

[00:11:51] Because I think there were so many years that we went through this like waifu thing and the like straight thing and the hide your boobs and the hide your butt or whatever. And I think now I just see it in young women because I have a son in middle school and I just love that like every girl walks around with confidence in their bodies and I think that’s been such a beautiful thing and I really think that the Kardashians in many ways have impacted overall kind of Body image in terms of it going from you have to be a size, whatever, zero or double zero.

[00:12:29] I don’t want to say it doesn’t exist, but it’s not as overpowering and visible as it was once for many, many years. And I think that now women feel more confident, young women more importantly feel really confident in their bodies. And I think, no, I don’t think you should hide things, but I do think You should do what feels right in your body.

[00:12:52] And I think if you’re like, Hey, I don’t like my elbows, then don’t show your elbows. Cause all you’re going to be doing is trying to cover them, you know? So that’s my feeling about it. I don’t think you should consider. What other people think about your elbows. It’s how do you feel about your elbows?

[00:13:11] Right? I’m not a huge lover of knees and elbows. I was made fun of as a kid and you know how that really scars you. Like I was told I had chicken knees. So I instinctually cover my knees. And then the other day I was wearing something and my knees were out and someone was like, you have such beautiful knees.

[00:13:28] I was like, what? It was the weirdest thing. And I think it shows you that. You should show the thing sometimes because you may be like, wait, like why am I hiding these?

[00:13:39] LM: Yeah. It might help you reframe your relationship to that thing. It’s interesting with the Kardashians. Cause I feel like it started that way.

[00:13:48] It started being so permission giving because they were in such opposition to everything else happening. In terms of what the ideal body and what the media said, the ideal body should look like. But now I feel like there’s almost like a different ideal body and you have to have the teeny tiniest waist and these big hips and big butt and big boobs.

[00:14:04] I very rarely see bodies that look like mine in media and it makes it hard to picture. When I’m looking for outfits on Pinterest, like, oh, that making sense for me. And I think I just have like a normal, healthy body.

[00:14:17] RZ: I think you just need to wear what you love. Wear what you love. And trust me when I tell you, you’re going to know when it looks good.

[00:14:25] You’re going to look in the mirror and be like, or take pictures of yourself and be like, wait, I look cute. This vibe works. Maybe I should redo this vibe, you know?

[00:14:34] And that’s how you develop your Personal style. It’s what feels right. It ultimately becomes effortless. I’ve seen clients come to me where they literally could not get themselves out of overalls.

[00:14:48] And then all of a sudden, they have the sickest personal style because they’ve done it enough that you learn. It’s like a language. It’s like learning a second language.

[00:14:58] LM: Okay, I want to get really granular about that because I’m pretty far from the effortless right now. I’m pretty much on the other side.

[00:15:06] Let’s say we’re looking in the mirror. We’re wearing kind of an outfit. We feel okay, but we feel like it’s missing something. What is it often missing to take it from just like, Oh, this is an outfit to this. It looks stylish and

[00:15:17] RZ: jewelry.

[00:15:18] LM: What kind of jewelry?

[00:15:19] RZ: Big earrings. A moment. Maybe it depends because it depends on what you’re wearing.

[00:15:24] If you’re wearing a dress with a plunging neckline and you have no necklace on, I’m just going to stare at it. Like I want to place a necklace there, you know? I think always add more jewelry. A. B, I think a heel helps everything, I’m sorry, but it does. And a lip.

[00:15:38] LM: What if we really, like, want to walk around all day, like, what are our options,?

[00:15:42] RZ: Then you wear cute flats, or you can wear a platform that’s really comfortable. The key is platforms. I have to apologize, I don’t even look remotely cute today, because Yes you do! Yeah. I just, I get up so early and I like basically throw something on in the dark while I run my kids out.

[00:15:58] And then I come back in and go right to work and realize like, Oh my God, you’ve been working the whole day and you’re on zooms and now you’re on a pod and didn’t even look cute.

[00:16:06] LM: You look so cute. And we’re going to talk about your work life balance and all of that later.

[00:16:10] RZ: There is not. No, I’m just kidding. Answer next. No, I’m just kidding.

[00:16:16] LM: Well, so then that’s a nice lead in if we want to look cute really quickly and put very little effort into it. What are the secrets there?

[00:16:23] RZ: I think you have a go to uniform. I call them heroes hero items and that term came from my styling life where was doing music videos, they would always ask for the hero outfit, um, which was the outfit they were wearing in the main part of the video.

[00:16:38] And it’s always like, hero look, hero look, we need doubles and triples of the hero look. So when I would like go into my styling life, it would just be like, You need to have a hero rack in your closet. You need to have a section of your like go to’s. I have five minutes to get myself out the door. I’m putting concealer on, mascara, a lip.

[00:17:00] I’m throwing these black trousers on with this shirt or this cute little jacket with a tank underneath and these comfortable boots or heels, whatever it is, and run out the door. And you need different iterations of that, like a really easy black knit dress or a camel colored blazer with a t shirt and jeans.

[00:17:19] It doesn’t have to be dressy, it just has to work. Take the decision fatigue out of it. You have to. That’s what I’m saying about like the trial and error. Like you know that outfit works. Don’t think about it. Just throw it on and go.

[00:17:31] LM: I feel like I’ll have these outfits and I’ll be like, yes, I look so good.

[00:17:35] I look better than I’ve ever looked. And then like two years later, I’ll be like, what was I thinking? I hated that outfit.

[00:17:39] RZ: I think that’s just your style insecurity.

[00:17:42] LM: Talk to me about that. Style insecurity.

[00:17:45] RZ: Yeah. I think most people have that. I think it’s more the norm. Even now I’ll meet people for the first time and they’ll be like, don’t look at what I’m wearing.

[00:17:53] And I’ll be like, I actually really didn’t, you know, for me, style really is the best. Kind of way to say who you are without speaking someone’s style is such a direct impression to me of who somebody is. You could not even say hello to me and I would probably know your vibe.

[00:18:11] LM: Which goes back to where we started the conversation because if your vibe is, I follow every single trend, that’s not a very interesting vibe versus this is who I am.

[00:18:19] RZ: They don’t really know who they are and they’re reaching at things and they’re spending all this money on trends to help fill a void of who they want to be. Yeah. And they don’t know who they are. My clients that were. The most a list, most successful, most secure were like the easiest, you know, the fittings were quick.

[00:18:38] They were super decisive. They were confident. It was the ones that were still constantly trying to figure out what box they checked in this world struggled. When it would take them multiple fittings, I guess what I’m saying is I’ve always approached style as something that informs your whole being.

[00:19:00] It’s an expression. It’s how you’re feeling in that moment. And I think it’s very much who you are, what you want to put out into the world. And I also think on the flip side of that, when you get dressed in the morning, it’s like. That affects your outlook on the day. That affects how you carry yourself.

[00:19:20] LM: Have you had celebrities that you’ve worked with where, I don’t know, they have skin that they’re not happy with and they’re having to go on a red carpet. When they have these insecurities based on things, how do you work with them on that?

[00:19:31] RZ: I think you just try and be there for them. I’m such a problem solver.

[00:19:35] It’s very hard for me to not fix something for people. I was a psych major and I think I probably used my psychology throughout my career and every day of my life. I mean, celebrities are human beings and You know, imagine throwing yourself out in front of the world every day. It’s hard. It’s really hard.

[00:19:55] And I think that’s why we have to have grace for a lot of people in the public eye, because it’s, it’s not an easy thing to put yourself out there and get photographed and get criticized and get looked at and get judged. And people have opinions about you and, you know, I think some people love it and they know it’s part of the game.

[00:20:14] And I think other people are like, It hurts, you know, when people cut them down, but they still have to do it because it’s part of the job. So I’m not putting pity on celebrities. I’m just saying, I think we have to like, have grace for them. They are very real people. And I think if we think about our insecurities as people, and then times a hundred to put yourself out there in front of the world. It’s hard.

[00:20:37] LM: Was that hard for you when you went from behind the camera to in front of the camera?

[00:20:41] RZ: Yes. Horrible. Yes. Yes. Because it was never my intention.

[00:20:46] I don’t think I was ever ready for that. When you’re going into acting or you’re a musician and, you know, You know, you’re a pop star and it’s like, you know, that that is the game.

[00:20:55] You know, that if you make it that you’re going to be in the public eye, that’s part of it. You’re going to be famous. Right. And I think for me, I always approached what I was doing as my job and my business and everything was a part of that. And I think when I signed on to do the Rachel Zoe project, I think it was sort of like, I was like, absolutely not never.

[00:21:17] And then it was like, Okay, what I have to lose, right? And no one’s going to care about my life. Like I’m nobody, you know? And I was like, I’m just highlighting the fashion world. I’m not, this isn’t about me. It’s about the designers. Right. And then obviously like life happens and the show turns out to be totally different.

[00:21:36] And, Before that, when the media started inquiring about like, who was creating these looks on certain people and dah, dah, dah, I don’t think that was ever something that I was comfortable with. And certainly never when I was at like events and stuff and they would take pictures of me or if I was with clients, I would always step in the back.

[00:21:56] I’d be like, no, no, no. I’m working or.

[00:21:58] LM: How did you let it not impact your self esteem?

[00:22:01] RZ: I mean, it did, it did affect my self esteem. You’re out there and everybody’s. forming opinions of you, whether you like it or not. And it’s terrifying, honestly.

[00:22:12] LM: And I’m just thinking about your knees story or like somebody said to me when I was a kid that I didn’t have great knees and that sat with me for my entire life.

[00:22:20] And I think about the comments that I’ve gotten about my face and my body online and you can have so many positive comments and you get one or two negative ones and you’re like, Oh, okay. So that’s the truth. Like, that’s what I’m going to sit with forever.

[00:22:32] RZ: A thousand percent. But that’s like one bully in a class of a hundred.

[00:22:35] Equals a hundred, right? Like the nice kids aren’t the ones that you’re like processing all day. It’s the bully that’s ruining your life, right? It’s the same concept that was hard for me. I tried to just look at it as part of my business and part of my job. And ultimately my show became a huge part of my business and part of my job.

[00:22:54] That’s probably why when I had kids, I just tried to not. I think I didn’t want them judging my kids. And for many years, they still were chasing us to get the picture of Sky. Social media probably helped that a lot, you know, because social media, you can sort of control and say, okay, well, here’s a picture of my son.

[00:23:14] So you don’t need to try and chase me to get it. There’s pros and cons to everything. And I think with publicity, if it’s good publicity comes opportunity. If you take it as it’s all just part of the same thing and it’s all just fueling your business and your brand, I think that’s just sort of how I’ve tried to look at it.

[00:23:33] But yeah, it absolutely affects my self esteem. I mean, it, it crushes me. I take things very personally because my job is so personal. My clients were so personal. I was so close with all of my clients. I’m still friends with many of them, you know?

[00:23:48] LM: Do you think there are different do’s and don’ts for different ages?

[00:23:51] Like when I post outfits online, I always hear from people in their forties, like, Oh, I’m 40. I can’t wear that type of thing. And then my mom, I grew up with my mom saying like, when I turned 40, I had to cut my hair short because you can’t have long hair when you’re older.

[00:24:04] RZ: God, I think the opposite. Gone are those days.

[00:24:07] I will die as Rapunzel. I will die at a hundred or eighty or however when I will probably still have hair as long as Cher.

[00:24:19] LM: I love it. I love it. So do you think there’s any credence to maybe you shouldn’t have your midriff out at a certain age or like the shit people say online or no?

[00:24:28] RZ: Honestly, it’s a hard question.

[00:24:30] Cause the answer is in the world we’re living in now. No, I don’t. Because I do think it’s to each their own. I really believe in that body shaming on any level should go away. It should not be tolerated. Whether you’re too thin, you’re short, you’re fuller, you’re this or that. Just let everyone be who they want to be.

[00:24:47] I know that’s not an interesting answer, but I just think at the end of the day, I don’t think anyone should have the right to cut someone down. For how they’re built, how they choose to eat, whatever. I like to think that those rules are gone. Who was it recently? Dolly Parton was in like, she was like in a mini with member that huge thing.

[00:25:06] She was like, which is a corset and a mini. I can’t remember, but she was wearing something unbelievable. And I don’t know how old she is. She in her eighties now, Dolly Parton, I think, but I was like. God, let us all be like that at 80, like whatever it was, you know, age now is so different than it was even 20 years ago.

[00:25:25] You know, if you can feel hot in a mini dress at 80, Godspeed, right? Like, truthfully, one of my best friend’s moms is 75. That bitch is so hot. I can’t get over her. She has the most gorgeous, lush, full hair. And I’m like, she should wear whatever she wants. She wears a mini. She looks amazing. Like, and even if she wasn’t, if you have the confidence at 80 to wear a mini, like, who am I to tell you you can’t?

[00:25:54] LM: A hundred percent.

[00:25:55] RZ: Do you know what I mean? Like why? A hundred percent. If you can, you should. If you feel confident, you should. I don’t think you should do it to prove a point. I think you should do it if you look in the mirror and you’re like, I feel really fucking good.

[00:26:08] LM: It feels like a lot of your message is like, you should figure out who you are and then you should confidently represent that in your style.

[00:26:15] RZ: I think that’s how everyone should be in life at this point. I do because I think it’s cool to do that. That’s it.

[00:26:21] LM: But, what if somebody’s listening and they’re like, well, that’s super cool, I don’t know who I am.

[00:26:26] RZ: Okay, so I think you have to take that time and I think you have to work on the inside.

[00:26:31] They’ve always said, since the minute I started working and I was dressing people, I was like, your inside informs the out and the outside informs the in, and they’re all very synergistic or should be very synergistic.

[00:26:43] LM: Was there anything that you’ve done in your life that’s helped you garner this really strong sense of identity that you clearly have?

[00:26:50] RZ: That is a really good question that I’ve never been asked, which is hard. Cause I’ve been asked a lot of questions and a lot of questions like a hundred times. So thank you friends. Thank you for asking me one I haven’t been asked. For me, the styling part is like breathing. And I think that’s kind of always been how I felt.

[00:27:09] I think as someone who didn’t and still probably doesn’t have high self esteem about most things. I think That from the age of seven or eight, I was dressing other people. I didn’t know it was called styling. I just, you know, went over to friends houses and laid out their outfits Monday to Friday, and I was like, I would do it head to toe and put little papers on them with notes.

[00:27:34] And. I don’t think in any life I thought I would make a career out of something that was like breathing for me, um, and get paid for it, you know, in a weird way. I’ve always sort of had the same style in different iterations. When I look back at pictures of me from when I was three, eight, 13. At my bat mitzvah, I changed three times and I wore a head to toe metallic lame outfit at 13.

[00:28:09] So like, when I think about it, I think I just dressed for myself and I think I dressed in what made me feel the most like myself and what made me feel like glamorous in some way. But effortless and felt unfussy and felt comfortable. And you know, anyone who knows me will tell you, I will never wear anything uncomfortable.

[00:28:33] I simply can’t. Once I did to a gala like two years ago and it looked great, but like I came home, like, Oh my God, that literally killed me. But for whatever reason. Getting dressed has always been the easiest thing for me. And I think it’s because in some ways I give zero fucks if people like it or not.

[00:28:55] LM: I love that.

[00:28:56] Okay. I have a comment and I have a question because I do think there’s something else that you said that’s incredibly important, which is you’re not necessarily confident in every single area in your life, but you come across as this incredibly confident woman. And I think one of the things that you’ve done that.

[00:29:10] Anybody could learn from is you took the area that you were naturally, incredibly confident in and you let it radiate and bleed out into all of these other areas of your life. And I think anybody can do that. So like, maybe that’s not style for you. If you’re listening, maybe it’s some other component of your life and you can lean into that and let that inform the person that you are and how you feel in all these other parts of your life.

[00:29:34] RZ: My wish for anybody, and I tell this to a lot of young people that I try and mentor is Stop focusing on what career you’re going to make the most money in. Focus on the thing that makes you the happiest and try and figure out how to make a career out of that. Because I fell into my career. I thought I was going to be a psychiatrist and I literally don’t think I ever thought I could get paid to do something I loved because I think when I was younger, working meant you have to be unhappy to make money.

[00:30:03] In the world we live in with so much opportunity and so many different ways. To have careers now, you know, it used to be if you wanted to be in the public eye, you had to be an actor, right? Or maybe like a politician or a singer now because of the internet, social media, and all these things. You’re in charge of your brand.

[00:30:22] LM: Yeah,

[00:30:23] RZ: 100%. And what you put in the world, truthfully.

[00:30:25] LM: And then my question was, you said you like to be comfortable all the time. Could you, on a very granular level, put together the cutest possible outfit that we can wear on an everyday basis that’s as comfortable as possible?

[00:30:39] RZ: For anybody.

[00:30:40] LM: For anybody, yeah.

[00:30:41] RZ: Yeah, but the thing is, everybody’s different.

[00:30:42] LM: What’s the formula? But what’s the formula?

[00:30:44] Like, what’s the, what are some tips? Because I want to be really comfortable 100 percent of the time, but I want to look really cute and I want to feel really confident.

[00:30:52] RZ: You have to know the things that work the best for you. I’m going to give you an example. For me, I know that black flared pants or dark denim flared pants, for me, Look the best on me and feel the best on me.

[00:31:07] So when I’m going out into my work life, I know that a great pair of black flared pants, whether they’re tux pants, suit pants, you know, slouchy wide like trousers or whatever. I’m comfortable. They look dressier than they are. They can go from day to night. And I can throw them on with a blouse, whatever it is, like a good button up either.

[00:31:27] It’s white, it’s black. It could be a cool tank. Most importantly for me is a jacket. I like to always have, and for anybody else, it could be a sweater. It doesn’t have to be a jacket. I have closets of jackets. How do you do that in LA? Because it’s hot during the day and then it’s freezing at night. So I have every iteration of a jacket.

[00:31:46] From faux fur to suede to fringe to beaded to sequin to denim, cotton, like it doesn’t matter, linen in the summer. Like I love a jacket. I love it on my shoulders. I love it on. And if you’re not a trouser girl, then have it be a skirt, have it be a comfortable, easy skirt, have a knit dress that’s like black or Navy or a camel that looks good on you.

[00:32:10] It’s about finding the thing That fits you well, it wears well, like it doesn’t wrinkle throughout the day. So if you’re sitting in it for two hours, it looks a crap because that doesn’t work. That. Is comfortable, but looks good. It could be your favorite black Zara pants. I’m just using as an example. It could be a black Zara t shirt dress.

[00:32:30] And with that t shirt dress, you feel like you’re in pajamas, but you can throw a blazer over it. You could put a sequin thing over it. You could put boots on, you could put heels on, you could put fricking sneakers on. It doesn’t matter. You understand? Like it’s just about easy, comfortable, but looks better than it costs.

[00:32:51] LM: Are you a fan of any of the fashion theories, like the sandwich theory where like your purse, I think, matches your shoes, stuff like that?

[00:33:01] RZ: I think things need to work and live together peacefully. I don’t think they have to match. Sometimes that looks way too forced. I think if your bag matches your belt, matches your shoes.

[00:33:15] LM: It’s 2 ,2.

[00:33:17] Do you have any controversial style opinions or style hot takes?

[00:33:21] RZ: Listen, I’m not a huge fan of the big baggy situation happening right now. I mean, my son is 13. He comes down. I’m like, did you just become like new kids on the block? Like what on earth? I love you madly, but what is happening? Like your butt is going to come out.

[00:33:39] Oh, it’s okay. You can wear a belt. I’m like, and then my team is like, you know, your mom knows what she’s talking about, right? He’s like, I do, but like not with this. And I’m like, you know what? That’s fair. Like that’s fair.

[00:33:53] LM: I know. I love you said on your podcast. Once somebody was like, what wedding dress would you pick for your daughter if you had one?

[00:33:59] And you’re like, if I had a daughter, she would not listen to my opinions. about her wedding dress. It’s

[00:34:04] RZ: true. It’s true. It’s a hundred percent true. What daughter listens to their mother’s opinion of what they should wear?

[00:34:10] LM: I don’t know how many daughter’s mother is Rachel Zoe.

[00:34:14] RZ: But I think even more so she would not listen.

[00:34:17] LM: What current celebrities do you think have the best style?

[00:34:21] RZ: Lately? I’m really loving Daisy Is it Daisy Edgar Jones, is that her name? She kind of reminds me of Dakota Johnson a bit. I always loved Dakota Johnson, obviously Sienna Miller.

[00:34:33] LM: Wait, say what you like about them so we can kind of learn from what you’re identifying.

[00:34:36] RZ: There’s an effortlessness. There’s an effortlessness. I’m always going to like the person that looks like they didn’t try. Sienna for me is always a win. Kate Moss is always a win still. I think Nicole Kidman is really crushing it as always.

[00:34:51] LM: If we want to look effortless, but we don’t know how to do that.

[00:34:56] Do you have any style secrets for looking effortless since you just pinpointed that that’s something you’re identifying as great style?

[00:35:02] RZ: It’s about taking something off. If you’re doing too many things, so it’s like what we were talking about earlier, right? Like if your earrings and your belt and your bag and your shoes, and then you have like a bow in your hair, because that’s a trend likely shouldn’t be wearing.

[00:35:19] All of them. That is the number one I tried so hard, right? Doing all the trends at once. Take one and roll with it. Your clothes should never overpower you.

[00:35:31] LM: I want to shift gears. I want to talk about your career because I’m obsessed with the Progression of your career and the way that you approach business and the way that you approach life.

[00:35:40] So I want to start with the obvious thing, which is that I’ve seen you talk about how wildly busy you are for so long, like all through the Rachel Zoe project. And then you’re still like potentially doing even more things on a regular basis. I would love to know as nitty gritty as possible, your time management and productivity secrets.

[00:36:01] RZ: You want me to be honest? I don’t sleep half as much as I should, which is why I think I can get more done. I’m not proud of that, by the way. I want to say that I don’t recommend this. This is just how my brain works. My favorite time of day is my like 10 to 1 a. m. Um, because I’m alone, no one’s bothering me, no one’s talking to me, no one’s asking me to do anything.

[00:36:24] And I can just go through my emails, I can get my stuff done. I can’t go to sleep knowing all the things I have to do when I open my eyes. I have to open my eyes knowing I closed the book on that day. I think it’s a blessing and a curse, you know, I think requiring, A small amount of sleep has served me in my career and probably as a mom, because when I had my babies, I just didn’t realize how little sleep one can actually have.

[00:36:54] But again, productivity to me is really important. When I became a parent, I realized that there was nothing more important than time management and that every minute counts, right? Because any minute away from my child, than children. Was better be worth it. And so what I tried to do since they were born is work while they’re not here.

[00:37:22] And then when they get home, I’m mom, you know, I don’t have a nanny. I won’t yield on being a full on mom. I don’t want to miss anything. Honestly, I had kids late in life. I did a lot before I had them. It goes in a freaking lightning flash. I have 13 and 10 year old now it’s wild. And I know that in a few years they won’t need me in the same way, you know, and that’s fine, but at least I know I did everything to help build who they become.

[00:37:55] LM: A huge debate I’ve been having on this podcast is like, we have a whole series called the pros and cons of having kids. I’ve been debating if I want kids, how they fit into my life and something in a. Have a lot of struggle around is the idea that I feel like my career is at its peak right now. I’m doing so well and I can’t picture how a kid would fit into that.

[00:38:15] And as somebody who had kids when your career was really busy, were you worried about that?

[00:38:22] RZ: Terrified. Beyond, literally beyond terrified. It’s funny cause I’m listening to you say that and I’m like, I’m pretty sure I said that 10 years. Here’s the thing. I did a lot before I had my kids. And I think that for me, it really worked to have my kids later.

[00:38:42] I do really believe that if you are a career person, most of the women I know that are very driven in their careers are like, how am I going to have a baby? How am I, when am I to do? I want to be a mom. How am I going to do that? I barely have time to shower. And I mean, it’s funny because You know, they had me do these rewatch episodes for my podcast and I have not watched my show.

[00:39:05] I don’t even think I watched it when it was on because I was so immersed in it that I just was like, I can’t even watch it because I can’t hear my voice. I don’t want to see my face. But I do remember like really watching it and crying. Like, how am I going to have a baby? Because my nickname, my whole life, since I was 17 was like Mama Zoe or like I mommed everyone.

[00:39:26] I mommed everyone. I was also the friend at the kids parties. The only mom invited to kids parties that didn’t have kids, right? Because my friends were all having kids and they were all off drinking wine. And I was the one sitting with all the kids because I loved them so much. So I knew in my soul, I had to be a mother to your point every day.

[00:39:47] How I’m at the peak of my career. I work 20 out of 24 hours a day. I don’t even have a Sunday off. How am I ever going to do this? I can’t even shower sometimes because I’m too tired. And then I got pregnant. I completely missed the first trimester and, you know, nine weeks in I was pregnant and I just, I think I was as shocked as anyone.

[00:40:11] I think I wasn’t trying, I wasn’t not trying. And I just remember walking into the hospital about, I don’t know, three or four weeks before I had Sky. I had bronchitis. and a sinus infection. I was almost nine months pregnant, styling Anne Hathaway for the Oscars when she was hosting it. And we changed her, I think 13 times.

[00:40:35] I just remember being on the floor. Like I had this tummy and I was like squatting down. Like I always do. I like literally would squat in my like eight inch platforms and just like squat down to like have a dress or tweak something. And everybody like, why are you squatting? And I’m like, I’m good. I’m good.

[00:40:52] I just remember going to the hospital to like, look at the labor and delivery, you know, they like to give you that tour. And I remember going, I’m not doing this, I’m not doing this. And everybody was like, what do you mean? I was like, I’m not ready. I can’t do it. I’m going to carry him for another year. I’m not ready to bring him into the world.

[00:41:14] I am not ready to be a mom. There’s no way I can do this. I have no time. And what I can tell you is that he came into the world, came into my hands. And I still haven’t let him go. So, you know, and then I had another one.

[00:41:32] LM: Which is a good, honestly, testament to this seems to be working out that you were like, okay, I’ll do it again.

[00:41:38] RZ: I mean, I would have had four.

[00:41:40] LM: Did your career suffer for it in any of the ways that you were scared about?

[00:41:45] RZ: My career became different. I would say I prioritized things differently. I approached work differently. And to be very honest with you, I don’t, Think I could have continued on the path that I was on.

[00:42:02] I was getting very sick. I had severe vertigo that was like polarizing for about a year over a year. I was constantly getting sick. My body was telling me it’s not sustainable. Do you know what I mean? In your twenties, everything’s sustainable. You know, you’re invincible in your twenties. Sky saved my life in many ways.

[00:42:22] He made me look at things differently. I think my success I just looked at it all differently. I approached life and work in a more healthy way. If you’re going to ask me, I’m going to tell you to do it. So I’m never going to tell you not to do it. But I also want to say that if you’re not someone that feels an overwhelming need to be a mother, then don’t do it.

[00:42:48] Don’t do it because you feel like you have to do it.

[00:42:51] LM: But if my fears about the time and my career and all of that,

[00:42:55] RZ: don’t worry about your time. In the world we live in, especially in what you do, that baby can sit right next to you. Everyone on my team is having babies now. My innermost circle, they’ve been with me 10 years, nine years, 13 years.

[00:43:10] Like, They’re all having babies now. And I’m just like, bring the baby, like bring the, it’s not like you work in finance in some corporate place that people are gonna be like, no babies, you know. Um.

[00:43:20] LM: But people listening might, and I do feel like it’s so shitty how little support we give mothers and parents in this world.

[00:43:28] RZ: That is true, and it’s getting better. And when I had my kids, I opened a nursery in my company because it killed me that I had the luxury of taking my son to work and six other moms that year had babies. And I was like, there’s no world that I’m bringing mine and you’re not allowed to bring yours. And I just think babies make everything better.

[00:43:48] I think that if you know that you want to be a mother, then don’t worry about your time. It happens naturally. You just become more efficient with your time.

[00:43:58] LM: Last thing that I want to get into with you is mentorship, because I know that mentors have been so important in your career and then you mentor a lot.

[00:44:06] So can you start off with maybe some specific ways that mentors have helped your career?

[00:44:11] RZ: I mean, mentors are my career. I don’t know that my career would have been. Anything without the start of my career with people like Tommy Hilfiger, who took the biggest chance on me of a lifetime. I was 24 about to be 25 going freelance.

[00:44:28] I went from making like 17, 000 a year to. Making more money in one job than I had in like my life at that point. And I left this job without knowing that I had my first freelance job. And I was about to be 25 having like that panic attack of like, Oh my God, I’m a grownup. I’m on my own. I have to like, I have to figure this out.

[00:44:52] Like I’m not making enough money. I was on the floor of my apartment in tears and like pasting taxi receipts and wardrobe receipts to papers to like get reimbursed for money I had laid out. And Tommy, I’d been working with his brother, Andy, Just going in to pull denim from his like J Lo, Hilfiger line or whatever he was doing.

[00:45:14] And I guess he had told Tommy that he thought I was like a great stylist or whatever. And Tommy called me into his office. I hadn’t met him and he hired me to do this incredibly huge job with huge stakes with 10 celebrities that were so huge. And then another like 10 to 20 male and female supermodels to style his brand new campaign.

[00:45:38] And. It was in LA and in Texas, and it was a two week job with so much money and so much production. I just remember sweat. I had like a panic attack. Like I was like, why are you like taking this chance? I don’t know that I can do this, you know? And he just said, I know you can. And honestly, like, had he not done that?

[00:46:03] Because after that. So, you know, everything just, I was working with Brittany and Backstreet Boys and NSYNC and Jessica and Enrique and, you know, all the pop stars and Mariah Carey, you know, it just kept going. And then I moved out to LA in, in 2003. And again, like this amazing publicist who’s still a very close friend of mine and a really big manager now, Nicole, at the time, Nicole King, now she’s Nicole King Salaka.

[00:46:33] Took a chance on me and had me style Jennifer Garner at the very last minute after having a meeting with her and That was the break of my life because that was really took me from sort of going fashion and music and pop and that whole industry into red carpet. And then after I worked with Jennifer, the rest really stumbled.

[00:46:57] Then it was Cameron and Selma and Kira and Kate and, you know, just kept going.

[00:47:03] LM: How do we find a mentor? And if we see somebody that we want to be our mentor, are we asking like, Hey, will you be my mentor? Like, how does that go?

[00:47:12] RZ: I’ve had various mentors in my life from Marc Jacobs to Tommy, to Diane von Furstenberg, and, um, You know, I think I’ve been lucky enough that these are people that are, and listen, honestly, in many ways, my clients were mentors sometimes like Salma Hayek, or, you know, just women who had also been through stuff in their careers.

[00:47:33] I think if you don’t have people like that, I think to find a mentor. A mentor really is someone that you look up to. They don’t have to be famous. It could just be someone you respect first and foremost for their values, for their ideals, for their success in business or success as a parent or success in literally anything, right?

[00:47:53] And someone that you just respect and admire on any level that you’re like, whatever advice you’re giving me. feels real, feels genuine, feels helpful, you know?

[00:48:05] LM: How do we get them to give that advice though? Like, let’s say I respect, admire this person, I’ve identified them, do I just ask them questions? Do I ask to take them out for coffee?

[00:48:15] RZ: Yeah, I think if it’s someone in your everyday life, You just say, I really admire you. I really admire your work ethic. I really admire your career path or I really admire your style. I really think you’re an incredible mother and you clearly work really hard. How do you do this? Would you ever spend 30 minutes with me?

[00:48:36] Most people really like to pay it forward if they’ve had success in life. I know for me, it’s probably the most valuable thing I do for people because Most women didn’t help me coming up in my career, which is part of why I started climbing in heels because I have the most extraordinary women in my life.

[00:48:56] Now as a woman in business and as a mother, I have these like incredible pockets of women in different areas of my life. And I just brought everyone together recently for my birthday and I just like looked around and I was like, my heart is so full because I think every woman at this table likes to see each other win.

[00:49:20] And that’s not always the case. Historically, there was only one seat at a table for a woman. Now that there’s more and more seats, I hope that women will continue to be genuine with each other and mean it when they say, I want you to do well.

[00:49:41] LM: What if you look around your life and there aren’t people?

[00:49:46] RZ: I had that most of my career which is probably why The kind women. There was a very small handful of women that have been supportive and kind and rooting for me in my career. And I’m still very close with them. One is Elizabeth Salzman. I don’t know if you knew who she is. She’s a great stylist and incredible friend and a boy. Mom, Mina Garcia was incredibly helpful to me.

[00:50:13] Kareen right field was incredibly helpful. Like I said, Diane von Furstenberg, but. Most of the women, as I came up in fashion were really, really mean to me. I came up with this sort of like, I’m going to stay to myself feeling. Then ultimately what happened over the last, I’m even going to say five years, five and 10 years.

[00:50:33] I’ve managed to bring in extraordinary women in my life and I, and it’s really just so meaningful because I think as women, when you find great women are genuine, there’s nothing like it. Truthfully.

[00:50:51] LM: I love that because I think there’s a lot of people listening and they’re in their 20s and 30s and 40s and they’re like, I don’t have this girl group of women.

[00:50:58] It must be too late for me. And you’re like five years ago. Like that’s crazy.

[00:51:02] RZ: And I’ll tell you something even further than that is that, you know, my team used to make fun of me. They’re like, yeah, you don’t like new people. And I think part of that was, I think having been betrayed by a lot of women in my life, I think having not been supported, knowing that certain women wanted to see me fail, um, most of the time.

[00:51:24] And I think when you start to look through that lens in a weird way, I think that’s what ultimately surrounds you. Right? Cause that’s, you’re so guarded, right? You’re so like, ah, nope, we’re not, it’s like the guy that doesn’t want to be in a relationship. So he just keeps sabotaging it. And I think I was a little like, well, I have my sister and I have my team and that’s all kind of I need.

[00:51:44] And I have a few girlfriends. And then about five, six years ago, I just was like, I need some new people. What did you do? How’d you find them? Different areas, like different areas, like places I spend time truthfully being a mom, incredible mom friends that are just bad asses. And we just really can talk about this sort of.

[00:52:04] Work mom life and the real struggles that go with that. When you grow up, whether it’s in school or in a certain industry, there’s a very finite group that surrounds you. And that group is either going to be amazing or it’s not, but you’re still going to always see those same people. Because what you do is always going to bring the same people together.

[00:52:24] But once you get to a certain point in your life, you can actually pick and choose who you want to surround yourself with every day. And I like to say, it’s like your chosen family. You may not love your birth family, but you absolutely have to love your chosen family. And I’m lucky because I have the most Epic actual blood family.

[00:52:41] So I feel very blessed for that. And that’s also probably why I didn’t feel the need to have. So many friends because I just felt very fulfilled with my innermost team and family. But now I just, I just love my friends and it’s really, I’ve really just amassed this incredible group of women that are so not petty and so not jealous and so like root for each other.

[00:53:06] And I think it’s cool to root for your friends.

[00:53:10] LM: I love that. I find it really exciting that my best friend group could be ahead of me still. I think that’s a really lovely sentiment. I could talk to you for 20 more years, but time is unfortunately up for now. Do you want to

[00:53:24] RZ: Because the podcast has to end or people are going to fall asleep.

[00:53:26] LM: No, I think they’d listen. I think they’d listen for a long time. I’ve listened to Climbing in Heels probably for cumulatively hours and hours and hours. I do. I love it. Do you want to take a second to shout out Climbing in Heels in your own words?

[00:53:37] RZ: Yes. Yes. So climbing in heels has been the most fun, honestly, one of the most fun things I’ve done in a really long time, because I think it’s like talking to you.

[00:53:48] I just love talking to interesting, successful women. I love to hear about the journey of women because I think that by nature, a lot of people are like, Oh, she just got there because, Oh my God, well, she knows so and so so that’s how she got there. Oh my God. Well, she’s best friends with this person. And it’s like, No, she has been on the floor crying a thousand times.

[00:54:11] She’s hit a hundred walls, you know, she’s tripped over herself, you know, but I think that learning the journey is part of how we help each other because I think that the highlight reel of social media. It’s not, in fact, real most of the time, right? And so for me, climbing in heels was really about highlighting incredible women, a woman’s journey to the top while she still really embraced the powers of being a woman.

[00:54:43] That’s really why it’s climbing in heels.

[00:54:45] LM: I think I said this to you before we got on, but it’s something I so admire about your career is that you’ve not. shaped yourself into like a Masculine boss energy or any other energy other than completely yourself and you found such success doing it

[00:55:00] RZ: Well, thank you. Listen the one thing I would say about us is I think people hold it against women that we bring emotion to everything. And I don’t think all women do, but I think, yes, I mean, I know I do. I do. I definitely do. But I’m not ashamed of that. I actually think that that’s our superpower, honestly.

[00:55:19] LM: A hundred percent.

[00:55:20] And I think the more we get women in positions of leadership, the more we’ll get to see that.

[00:55:24] RZ: Yes. The more consideration of humans. Yes.

[00:55:28] LM: In general. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. I love this conversation.

[00:55:31] RZ: Oh, me too. So fun to meet you. And I can’t wait to have you on my pod.

[00:55:35] LM: That is all for this episode of the Liz Moody Podcast.

[00:55:38] If you are new to the podcast, welcome. I am so glad that you’re here. Make sure that you are following the podcast on whatever platform that you like to listen on. I know that 50 percent of you listening to this episode do not follow the podcast. What is up with that? You’re making your life harder by not following.

[00:55:57] Not only is it the best way to support the podcast, but it also makes sure that episodes show up right in your feed. You don’t have to search for them anywhere. And trust me, you do not want to miss what we have coming up soon. I will be delivering some incredible science. Interviews and advice every single Monday and every single Wednesday for you.

[00:56:16] Okay, I love you, and I will see you for the next episode of the Liz Moody Podcast.

[00:56:23] Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.