“I Feel Behind Financially”: Your Toughest Money Qs Answered with Your Rich BFF, Vivian Tu

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we’re sharing real science, real stories and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Let’s dive in. Today, I have on Vivian Tu, also known as YourRichBFF, and we are tackling all of the trickiest financial situations that we run into in our lives.

[00:00:24] We’re talking about how to actually budget with your partner. How to know if you and your partner are even financially compatible in the first place. How to split costs if one person makes more money in a relationship. How to know whether you should rent or buy. The best way to invest your money to actually get rich.

[00:00:40] Like if we should really all be out there buying investment property or laundromats like the people on social media say. If side hustles are legit and how to know if you should have one. How to deal with parents who expect you to be their retirement fund. What to do when your friends are causing lifestyle creep.

[00:00:55] And so much more. This is such a fun episode. [00:01:00] Vivian is a former JPMorgan trader. She’s the author of the New York Times bestseller, Rich AF, the winning money mindset that will change your life. And she is a deep expert in her field, but she’s also just really tell it like it is. She’s really chatty. And I think you’re just going to enjoy the heck out of this episode while also learning a lot about finances, which is always the goal here on the Liz Moody pod.

[00:01:23] Real information, but shared in a way that is actually fun to listen to. So without further ado, let’s jump right in. One super quick note. I know that 50 percent of you listening to this episode do not follow the podcast. Take a second now to hit that follow or subscribe button. It is the best way to support the podcast, and it makes sure that episodes show up right in your feed.

[00:01:44] Go ahead, do it right now. I’ll wait. Trust me, you do not want to miss out on any of our upcoming shows. They are jam packed with science and stories that will change your life. All right, let’s get right into the episode. Okay, Vivian, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to have [00:02:00] you here. I’m such a fan.

[00:02:01] Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to chat. My listeners have so many tricky financial issues, so I’m really excited to hear your take on all of them. I’m just going to jump right in. I want to make sure my husband and I aren’t overspending, but the times we try to track our spending, we end up fighting a lot.

[00:02:16] How do you keep to a general budget without fighting over the constant day to day expenses?

[00:02:21] VT: Yeah, I think something that’s really easy that I love to do, and I personally find this to be the easiest method, is called 50 30 20 budgeting. So your take home pay, you calculate it yours, your husband’s, and then 50 percent of that money goes towards needs.

[00:02:37] So that’s housing, that’s groceries, transportation, what have you. 30 percent goes towards wants. So that’s getting your nails done, dinner out with friends. Whatever. And then 20 percent goes towards taking care of future you guys. So that’s the saving, the debt pay down, and the investing. And the reason why this is so great is because we’d like to think about ourselves as if we live in a [00:03:00] vacuum and we do the exact same thing every single week.

[00:03:01] But that’s just not true, right? Like even imagine the winter holidays. You’re going to be spending way more money in December than you likely will in January. So what’s really easy about this is that 50, 30, 20 is something that you can do over a year. A couple weeks, over a couple months, over a couple quarters.

[00:03:17] And so as long as you’re sticking relatively to that framework, you’re in a good spot. But don’t let it stress you out on a week to week basis of saying, this budget is how much we’re spending. This week might be a more expensive week, but maybe next week. You do a little bit more of the 30 or a little bit of the 20, so you’re doing a little bit more of that responsible saving, debt pay down, and investing.

[00:03:36] LM: Can we dive into a little bit, like the nitty gritty of that? Yeah, yeah. How often are you meeting to discuss these things? Is it one big meeting and then you’re doing little check in meetings?

[00:03:45] VT: Yeah, so what my husband and I like to do is actually have a monthly meeting. Don’t call it a meeting because immediately that puts you in a bad head space.

[00:03:54] But what we like to do is that we’ll have a Friday night designated every single month where we order a pizza [00:04:00] and get some of our favorite sodas and we will sit down for date night. And Date Night just so happens to include, in part, talking about our money, how much we’d spent the past month, what we’re feeling, are we overspending, are we able to loosen the belt just a little bit so that we can have a little bit more fun, and that’s a good rough check in.

[00:04:18] But again, I don’t want to say just because it works for me and my boo that it works for everybody. Especially when you’re thinking about different types of income, so you’ve got folks who’ve got the traditional, I get paid bi monthly, then you’ve got folks who are teachers, they get paid, what, nine months out of the year versus the 12, then you’ve got people who work in sales, so maybe their regular salary is a little bit lower, but they can expect a big commission check every month.

[00:04:43] every single quarter. You want to make sure that you’re having these meetings in a way that makes sense for you and your partner based on what you guys do, how much you’re spending, what you’re spending on, and also just whatever goals that you have coming up. If you have a big purchase that’s coming, whether it’s a vacation, or a car, or a home, [00:05:00] maybe you’re having more meetings into that event.

[00:05:02] Or if there’s not too much going on, you’re on autopilot, you’re doing well,

[00:05:07] LM: You can have fewer meetings. What if you disagree about what should make up those numbers? You’re like, I think the 30 percent where we’re spending it on should be travel. And your partner’s like, I think we should buy a new TV. We should buy a new car.

[00:05:18] Yeah. I think this is less so much even a finance

[00:05:21] VT: question, but a relationship question. We have to compromise. It’s a hard word for all of us to say because we don’t want to do it. Sometimes you want to go my way or the highway, but in any good relationship, there’s got to be a little give, a little take.

[00:05:36] It can’t be 100 percent travel. It can’t be 100 percent whatever your partner wants. I think it’s really about sitting down and being like, as a couple, what do we value? I hate to say it, but the number one rule when finding a partner, when it comes to finances, is finding someone who values a dollar the same way you do.

[00:05:54] And if you are with a partner who wants to blow all of their money on the [00:06:00] latest designer looks, And you’re someone who’s like, I could literally wear a potato sack, but I’ve got to go on a trip once a quarter, otherwise I’m not feeling good. Maybe you two aren’t financially compatible.

[00:06:13] LM: Is there a question that we could ask very early in our relationship to suss out whether or not we are financially compatible?

[00:06:18] Not one single question,

[00:06:19] VT: but I think you should start talking about money on the very first date. And this doesn’t have to be like, we go on a date and I’m like, show me your pay stub. That’s a little weird. Don’t do that. But you can ask a question like, If money weren’t a factor, what would you do for a living?

[00:06:34] What is your absolute dream vacation and how much do you think it costs? That’s a fun way to bring in money and make that conversation less awkward. And it’s so fantastical that it’s not super pressure y about what you’re currently doing or your financial situation. But if you’re talking about money on the first date, Then you’ve been dating a couple months, you’re having more conversations of, Oh, like, you know, we’ve been going out to quite a few dinners.

[00:06:57] I’d love to help pick up the bill. How should we [00:07:00] split this? That’s a good conversation to have. Then you start to get really serious and you’re starting to think about, Oh, should we move in together? You have to have a really, really meaningful financial conversation at that pivotal moment. Because how are you going to split rent?

[00:07:13] How are you going to split utilities? How are you going to buy furniture together? Do you guys already have furniture you’re bringing in? And That is a real big moment to get financially naked because if you do, you’re going to have essentially eliminated so many of the arguments you could have later on.

[00:07:29] Sex and money rank is the number one and number two reason. It goes back every year in whatever study they’re doing. Imagine you can eliminate 50 percent of the top most had arguments. That’s already going to massively put your relationship at a huge advantage. And when you’re talking about moving in, then it’s like, okay, the next phase is we’ve been together for quite some time.

[00:07:50] We’re thinking about potentially taking the next step, like combining finances, getting married. Once you do that, you’re like, maybe we want to have kids, maybe you want to have kids before you get married. These are all conversations you need to be [00:08:00] having throughout the life of the relationship. And it’s okay if you haven’t done that yet to be like, can we do that this Friday?

[00:08:08] Okay. It’s going to help put us on more stable footing going forward. The idea and the hope is that the earlier you start, the better.

[00:08:17] LM: Are there best practices in your mind or are they really dependent on the couple? Do you think everybody should split evenly or should the person who makes more pay more?

[00:08:27] Do you think that they should have a combined bank account and separate ones? Like what do you think are the best things to smooth the path for couples? So I have

[00:08:33] VT: two ground rules that I personally follow and I think everyone, most people should follow. Again, it’s all personal, personal finance. But rule number one.

[00:08:43] Always, always, always, always have your own money. I’ve had way too many women, unfortunately, message me and say, I just found out that my husband of 20 years has been having an affair. I don’t even know what the password to our bank account is. And that is [00:09:00] such a shame. a overwhelming feeling, and I never want anybody listening right now to feel that way.

[00:09:07] So you need to have your own money. I hate the idea of just having one mega pot. That in most cases is not the best idea. Even if you do have a joint account, combined finances, have your own money. I cannot emphasize that enough. And then the second piece is love your partner. Be fair to your partner. If you make 250, 000 a year and your partner makes 75, 000 a year, We should not be going 50 50 on the rent because it is not a commensurate burden on the person making less.

[00:09:42] Over time, that’s going to lead to financial resentment. Because now you still have all of this discretionary money that you can spend on the rent, you can spend on all these other things you want to do, but I’m spending a huge portion of my income likely on rent. And then I have no money left over, I can’t do all the other things I want to [00:10:00] do, leads to really negative feelings about your partner.

[00:10:04] So if you truly love your partner. And you truly want what’s best for them. I don’t believe in equality when it comes to splitting things down the middle. We are never going to be 50 50 partners. Some day it’s 80 20, other days it’s 20 80. You should be fair, and I think it should be a proportional burden of whatever that expense is based on your income.

[00:10:27] LM: There’s so many tricky power dynamics involved in that, though. Like, I’ve seen where there’s the imbalance and the person who’s putting more money into the couple is like, well, I should get to choose where we go on vacation, or I should get to choose our house. Do you think they should get to choose that?

[00:10:41] I think

[00:10:43] VT: their opinion is equally as valid as their partner. So I’ll give you an example. If you make more money and I make less, and we need to find an apartment together, and because you have a job that’s maybe a little bit more demanding, and you say, hey, a deal breaker is for me, I need to be X, Y, Z distance [00:11:00] between our home and the office.

[00:11:02] I think that’s a fair point to make because your partner may have to commute just a little farther and convenience themselves just a little bit more. You are also picking up more of that financial burden. It’s a give and take. You want to be fair to your partner. If your partner is making more and working a more demanding You want them to try and be as close to the office as possible.

[00:11:23] LM: It’s so tricky, though, because sometimes the demanding job does not match up with the income. Like, somebody will be working this really hard job, and society just doesn’t value it. Yeah,

[00:11:31] VT: like,

[00:11:32] LM: I mean, teachers,

[00:11:33] VT: nurses certainly should be paid more. But I think, again, it really comes down to being fair to your partner, being loving to your partner.

[00:11:42] Wanting financial stability for your partner. I learned something the other day and I thought it was really profound. It’s not me taking care of you and you taking care of me. It’s me taking care of me for you and you taking care of you for me. And so you should want financial [00:12:00] stability for your partner.

[00:12:01] Not just in relation to you. If I’m an A plus and you’re an A plus and we come together, we get to be great. If I’m an A plus and your financial situation is a C minus. We don’t magically round up to my A Suddenly we’re a B and we’ve got stuff to work on. So you should want financial comfort and financial stability for your partner.

[00:12:23] And if you can help get them there. That’s a good thing.

[00:12:27] LM: Is it okay to push your partner if your financial goals for your future are greater than your partner’s? Like if your partner’s like, I would be happy in a one bedroom apartment with my video games and you’re like, well, I want to live this big, exciting, luxurious life.

[00:12:43] That goes back to

[00:12:43] VT: valuing a dollar the same way. I’m sorry, but if you want to retire at 30 and live in an Airstream, you and I probably are not going to be good partners because I am happy retiring closer to 60. Okay. Bye. But I better have a vacation home, and my ugly bulldog Pickles better be [00:13:00] eating that warm fresh food.

[00:13:01] I want to make sure Pickles is taken care of. Me and the person who wants to live in the Airstream at 30 have differing financial values. In the same way that there are a lot of relationship deal breakers on, do you want kids? How do you want to raise them? Do you want our relationship to have any sort of religious affiliation?

[00:13:20] in many cases, political viewpoints. I think finances should be a deal breaker for people. And if it’s not, maybe you’re not asking the right

[00:13:27] LM: questions. Oof. Okay, so if somebody’s listening and they’re like, shoot, I might not have the same financial values as my partner and they don’t want to get divorced or break up, what can they do to begin to mitigate that situation?

[00:13:41] I think it’s

[00:13:41] VT: having an open and clear conversation of goal setting. So a big thing that we as a But it’s not just about having those dreams, it’s writing down on paper, Okay, if I do want to have a house in 10 years, and I want it to be my forever home, I want to have a [00:14:00] beautiful 4 5 bedroom place close to the water, what is going to get you there?

[00:14:08] What kind of income is Helps you make enough money to get there. What kind of savings do you need to have? What type of investing do you need to do? Do you have debt you need to pay down? Writing out those steps is really important. I think, sit down with your partner, get that pizza, get that soda, and say, can we talk a little bit about where we see ourselves as a couple in five years?

[00:14:29] Because I love you so much, and I want us to be together in five years. But I want to make sure that we are envisioning the same life. And what I will say is that, I don’t encourage you to try and convince your partner that they want children. I don’t encourage you to try and convert your partner’s religious affiliation when you’re already five years in.

[00:14:52] I think people’s financial priorities can change. I think if you have a bad spending problem right now, [00:15:00] you can change. You can spend more manageably so that you’re also able to take that travel that your partner loves so much. There are certain things that are fixable, are changeable. There’s no financial situation that is so bad that you can’t come back.

[00:15:15] And you just have to communicate.

[00:15:17] LM: Are there any other big mistakes that you see couples making with finances and relationships? Ooh, this is a good one. Not talking about it before the marriage and not getting a prenup. Can you give us like three topics or three questions we should ask before the marriage and then I’d like some specific advice for our prenup.

[00:15:36] I have four specific questions. It’s how much do

[00:15:39] VT: you make? How much do you have? How much do you spend, and how much do you owe? You need to fill out this little foursquare. You need to know all of this stuff before you tie the knot. It is so critically important. Financial infidelity is on the rise. What does that mean?

[00:15:55] So in the same way that a bad partner would roll over in their sleep in like [00:16:00] text a cute new boo. Partners are rolling over and looking at their bank account and seeing that they’ve overdrafted and have six figures of credit card debt and their partner doesn’t know. And that’s really scary.

[00:16:10] LM: That’s really scary.

[00:16:11] VT: Because when you are signing a binding governmental document with someone, you want to know everything about them. Ooh. Like, I’m trying to get a full PI background check. And so, I think talking about those four quadrants is really important. And then, The POV on the prenup for me is, regardless of if you and your partner draft one, you get one.

[00:16:35] The government just gets to write it. And regardless of what side of the aisle you sit on, you probably don’t trust the government as far as you can throw them. I certainly don’t. And maybe this is unfounded, but I think I’m smarter than the government. I think I have a better sense of my needs. than the government does.

[00:16:52] And certainly in places where states also have a say, it’s very different because there’s community property states, there’s things like that. [00:17:00] When you sign your prenup that you have drafted with a lawyer, you guys are together, you have written out the terms on a sunny day, a good day, a day where you and your partner have nothing but love for each other.

[00:17:13] You will be fair. You will make a smart decision for the both of you so that when you walk away, nobody is left destitute. Nobody is left like the, you know, millionaire winner of a relationship because that shouldn’t be the case. Mm. But, this is going to help avoid so many lawyer’s fees. When you get divorced, and you don’t have a prenup in place, and you don’t have a plan on how to divide assets, the only people who win are the attorneys.

[00:17:38] Because you’re going to take it to court, and they’re going to rack up those fees. Hundreds of dollars every single hour. If you have a plan, it will protect you. It’s already sad enough to have a dissolution of like a relationship that meant so much to you at one point. Why add a financial burden on

[00:17:53] LM: top of that?

[00:17:53] I have a girlfriend who just wrote up a prenup, and they did in it not only what would happen if they got divorced, but also rules in their [00:18:00] marriage, which I thought was so cool. It’s such a smart way to do it. And it also took this vibe of like, oh, if we’re doing this, we must be planning to break up someday, which I don’t think that’s what a prenup is, but it made it more about the rules for their marriage.

[00:18:11] So one thing in the prenup is they won’t lend friends over 3, 000 as like a rule as a couple. So then if somebody comes to them and asks them to borrow money, they’re like, sorry, it’s in our rules. And I thought that was a really smart way to make it know this is about our marriage, not just our potential divorce.

[00:18:27] Yeah, that’s super duper smart.

[00:18:29] VT: I love that. And frankly, I think Any partnership should have a set of rules. Like, I don’t mean to sound corporate, and I don’t mean to take all the sexiness out of it, but when you have rules in place that both of you are very aware of and can follow, everybody wins. And on top of the fact that people are saying like, Oh, this means like you don’t foresee this relationship.

[00:18:47] That’s not true. You buy car insurance, don’t you? Are you hoping somebody hits you on sunset? I don’t think so. You buy car insurance. You buy health insurance. You have to plan for what could happen. Not what will. We [00:19:00] hope it doesn’t. Nobody wants a kidney stone. You’re gonna be happy you have that health insurance to get that scan where they like break up the little rocks.

[00:19:06] It’s important to have.

[00:19:07] LM: Do you have any money rules that you live by either individually or in your relationship? If I can’t buy it twice, don’t buy it. What does that

[00:19:13] VT: mean? If something is so extravagant or beyond what I can certainly afford twice, I don’t need to get it. I think some people will be like, I’m gonna save, save, save, save, save, save, save for this special item.

[00:19:27] And then they deplete their entire savings getting it, whether it’s a fancy car, whether it’s a fancy bag, tech item, whatever. Do you know what you could have done with that money? You know what the opportunity cost of everything is? The opportunity cost is you could have invested it. You could have made money.

[00:19:42] The opportunity cost is you could have done something else cool with it that you would have enjoyed as well. So, my big thing is if you can’t afford it twice, you can’t afford it. And that way, when you are buying these discretionary things in your life, things that you don’t need, I’m not saying if you can’t afford groceries, don’t buy them.

[00:19:56] Like, you still need to buy groceries. For discretionary purchases, if you can’t afford [00:20:00] it twice, you can’t afford it.

[00:20:01] LM: And would you include a down payment for a

[00:20:03] VT: house in that or no? Not necessarily. That’s certainly a little different because your home, if it’s your primary residence, is going to be the largest expenditure you ever have in your life.

[00:20:13] But again, I will say I know people who’ve stretched themselves. They closed on their home and they looked at their bank account and they had 48. 72. And that to me, in my mind, feels like perhaps you should have found a home. That was a bit more affordable. Just because you close on that home, great. You know you still need to buy furniture, right?

[00:20:38] Yeah, I have. You still have to pay for homeowner’s insurance. You have property taxes. You have all of these other fees that just because you closed doesn’t mean you’re done spending money. I would not put myself in a precarious financial situation. Um, for any purchase, Holmes, I think there’s a little bit of flexibility in Wiggle Room.

[00:20:58] LM: That’s a perfect segue into [00:21:00] my next question, which is, my husband and I are millennials and we just bought our first house. Woo! We saved so long for the down payment and didn’t think to save for post purchase expenses like decor and improvements. What could we have done better and what can we do now to remedy the situation?

[00:21:14] Listen,

[00:21:14] VT: I am so proud of whoever submitted this question. Buying a home is a feat, and it certainly is not easy in this interest rate environment. A couple cool tips to think through. First and foremost, like, we’ve all heard Jerome Powell say, interest rates are probably coming in. So if you got a mortgage right now, That you’re like, okay, I have a 7 percent mortgage rate.

[00:21:38] In six months, if interest rates go down to something with like a five handle, I don’t know, again, this is very fantastical. That feels like a very, very steep drop very quickly. But even in a year or two or whatever, you have a more reasonable interest rate. You can always refinance your mortgage. There’s a small fee associated, but your monthly payments are going to be less.

[00:21:58] And over time, you’ll pay [00:22:00] less in interest, which is certainly worthwhile. Two, there is actually a really cool website, so this is very less high finance and more just like fun for furniture shopping. It’s called dupe. com, d u p e dot com, and they can show you high end furniture pieces. and where to get them for significantly less if you are furnishing your home.

[00:22:20] And then if you were to do it all over again, I would say maybe consider a home that didn’t stretch you so far just on those closing costs and the initial payment because there will be unexpected costs. People think buying a home is all that and a side of fries. I am now a homeowner. I bought my place at the end of 2021.

[00:22:42] When the toilet explodes at 2am in the morning, you don’t have a super to call to come fix it. You have to pay out of pocket. a plumber, not only to fix it, but the rush fee for the 2 a. m. situation. You have to cover those expenses in what you have budgeted for, for this home. So the furnishings, [00:23:00] the decor, any sort of renovations you want to make, annual maintenance can be anywhere between one to four percent of a home’s overall cost.

[00:23:08] So just make sure that you are budgeting for these extraneous costs that nobody talks about.

[00:23:13] LM: What’s your best advice for somebody trying to decide whether to rent or buy in today’s climate? Ooh, okay, so this is very personal,

[00:23:20] VT: and it’s based on a lot of different factors, but there is a tool that you can use.

[00:23:23] So the New York Times put out a calculator. Just search New York Times Rent vs. Buy Calculator. It’s going to ask you what you’re currently paying in rent, or what the terms of your mortgage are, and what you’re a comparable home or a home that you would be happy living in would cost to rent each month.

[00:23:40] And then you’re going to fill in all this information. It’s going to, and then at the very bottom, it’ll spit out an answer. Like you would save X amount renting over the next 12 months, or you would save X amount purchasing a home over the next 12 months. And this is going to give you a much more personalized answer of should you rent or buy?

[00:23:59] Because [00:24:00] I can sit here and. give you the pros and cons of each, but it really does depend on where you live. Right now, in 70 percent of all U. S. markets, it’s cheaper to rent than buy a home.

[00:24:09] LM: And does that mean in the long term, because what people always say is like, yeah, it’s cheaper now, but you’re flushing money down the toilet, blah,

[00:24:15] VT: blah, blah.

[00:24:15] That statement is out of the right now, monthly basis. However, building equity is something to consider. For the past hundred years, that is how the middle class generated wealth. is real estate. So it’s really important to acknowledge that and try this calculator out to see if it actually would be better for you overall financially to rent versus buy.

[00:24:36] LM: Do you think we should be thinking about home ownership in a different way? Because you’re like, for the last 100 years, this is how the middle class has generated wealth. Do you think this is still the primary way we should be thinking about generating wealth? Or in today’s climate, has that shifted in your mind?

[00:24:50] I think it’s shifted because

[00:24:52] VT: back in the day, it was very much. You bought a primary residence, you lived in it, and it appreciated in value [00:25:00] because time had passed and that real estate had become more and more scarce and less readily available. Those plots of land became less readily available. However, I actually know people now who rent their primary residence.

[00:25:12] And purchase investment properties in lower cost of living areas in the Midwest, in the Southwest, versus major metros like New York, SF, LA, Miami, Chicago, like housing is very expensive there. And frankly, there is not enough room for appreciation unless you’re able to get a really stellar deal. If you’re already in a market that feels very saturated, that is already very, very cost prohibitive, you might be better off renting over the long term and investing those dollars in real estate in an area that’s less developed, that has less urban sprawl, but may have incredible opportunities coming that way.

[00:25:55] A huge regret I have not investing in [00:26:00] 2016, I didn’t have two nickels to rub together, if I’d had money back then. What I really wish I would have done, bought as much property in Austin as I could have. Because over the past eight years, Austin has become the next big tech center, the next big boom.

[00:26:15] There’s financial firms, hedge funds moving out there. And as soon as there’s investments from major corporations, what you’re going to notice is, oh, there’s office buildings. Office building people need to eat salads for lunch, or they need to get soup, they need to get these places, all of these little boutique, little restaurants start to pop up, oh, the restaurants start popping up, the bars start popping up, now there’s stuff, there’s stuff to attract people, oh, there’s people that are shopping now, and suddenly, Austin has become such a hub where young people are desiring to move there outright.

[00:26:42] So I just don’t think buying your primary residence is the end all be all anymore. I think it really is up to you, your financial goals,

[00:26:50] LM: and where you live. But you like the idea of investing in property generally versus taking that money and putting it in an index fund and just letting it grow. I didn’t say that.

[00:26:58] One thing with real estate you have to [00:27:00] remember is like your dollars

[00:27:01] VT: are very concentrated. Unless you are Crowdfunding real estate investments, a brand that does it really well is like a Fundrise. You can put in as little or as much money as you want, and then you can say, hey, I want to put 100 into this strip mall in Nevada.

[00:27:19] I want to put 200 into this residential complex in Indiana, you can spread your dollars out. If you are individually buying real estate property, your money is very concentrated and there is a potential benefit to that, but also high risk. What happens if the area you bought a home in has a mudslide?

[00:27:38] What happens if a hurricane comes through? Like, what happens? You’ve lost a huge amount of that investment. What I say is cool for the vast majority of investors is first getting involved and making sure you are maximizing your retirement accounts, investing through the public equities market as well as fixed income depending on your age.

[00:27:57] The reason being is it’s liquid. [00:28:00] Liquid just means how easily can you get in and out of this? If you go buy an ETF today, if you wanted to, if you needed to. You could sell it tomorrow. You can’t do that with a physical building. We know closing takes at a minimum one month, at a minimum three months, whatever, depending on how complicated it is.

[00:28:20] Real estate is cool. It’s not the first thing I would invest in. It is something for the more intermediate, advanced investors. As a beginner, it’s cool. You need to be investing in a diversified

[00:28:31] LM: portfolio of, frankly, just index funds. Okay, so this is after you’ve maxed out your retirement, you have a certain amount in index funds.

[00:28:38] So And then you want to take it to the next level? No, so this is the part

[00:28:41] VT: that people always get wrong. Okay. When they think about, I’ve maxed out my retirement account. What does that actually mean? You have accounts. Accounts like a 401k, a Roth IRA, an IRA, whatever. People put money into that, they max it out, and they think they’re done.

[00:28:57] No! That’s like [00:29:00] taking a pocket full of cash, going to the grocery store, taking a hot lap, going home, opening your fridge and being like, where’s the food? You didn’t buy any food. You just walked around with your cash. That’s what happens to so many people, too. They put cash into these retirement accounts and they don’t actually buy anything.

[00:29:16] They don’t buy investments. And it just sits in cash and doesn’t grow. And they’re like, I’ve been investing for 10 years in my 401k. How come it hasn’t moved? Investing doesn’t work. Yeah, because you’re sitting in cash reserves. It’s not working. It’s savings, not investing. When you have to take that cash, what you do is you actually want to purchase investments.

[00:29:40] For a lot of people, the right move would be a target date retirement fund, index funds that track the broader market, perhaps some sector funds if you have interest in different sectors of basic industry, whether that be tech or healthcare. You can invest. You have to buy stuff. And so when I say make sure that you are actually investing your money, that’s what I mean.[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] LM: How can we self evaluate? Because all of us are like, I want to be richer. We go online, we see all these people being like, just do this and you’ll get rich. How can we evaluate when our investment should go from the retirement stuff, the index funds, to something that’s a little bit more out of the box that the internet tells you we’ll get rich really fast with, like property?

[00:30:17] Yeah, let’s be clear. There is no

[00:30:19] VT: such thing as a get rich quick scheme, especially not with real estate. You might have to be holding that thing for a while for you actually to see appreciation in a neighborhood. Years. But, What I say is there is a flow chart order of things you should be doing. First and foremost is maxing out all of your tax advantaged accounts because you get tax benefits for doing that, and you should.

[00:30:40] So that’s like what? Like your 401k, your Roth IRA, or an IRA. If you have both. children that you want to help them save for their education. 30 ish states out of all 50 offer a state tax benefit for a 529 account. Just taking advantage of those tax optimizations. You want to [00:31:00] max those out. You want to make sure that those dollars are invested.

[00:31:03] Then you might even want to open up a non major tax benefit individual brokerage and be putting money and investing in that. Once you have that on lock, you feel very confident things are good. Then you can kind of move on to a little bit more esoteric stuff, a little bit more alternative. This is the real estates.

[00:31:21] This is the, oh, if I want to put maybe one to five percent of my entire portfolio in crypto. If I want to perhaps consider some more high risk investments, then you can start thinking about the other stuff. But do the basics first. It’s the same thing as the food pyramid. You have to eat your grains, vegetables, fruits, meats, cheeses.

[00:31:44] Do that first before you get the candy and the Doritos at the top.

[00:31:48] LM: There’s a woman online who says that the best way to get rich is to buy boring businesses like laundromats and parking lots and stuff like that. Do you think that’s a huge untapped source of wealth? I do agree [00:32:00] that buying cash

[00:32:01] VT: flowing businesses is not a bad business strategy.

[00:32:05] However, it’s not as easy as everybody on the internet makes it seem. You aren’t going to magically find some laundromat that, oh, boohoo, the owner wants to sell it. Like, if the owner’s making good money, why would they sell it to you? The theory is correct, yes. If you can buy a cash flowing business with debt, with somebody else’s money, that puts you in a good position, as long as it remains cash flowing.

[00:32:28] a positive cash flowing business. That’s what also happened with like Airbnb boom. People essentially were borrowing money from the bank and buying all of these properties, turning them into Airbnbs. And for a minute there, they were making a lot of money. They were paying off those mortgages with other people’s Airbnb fees, da da da da.

[00:32:46] But then Airbnb starts throwing on Fee Fi Fo Fums, cleaning fee, platform fee. People start getting mad. They don’t want to stay at Airbnbs anymore. They want to go to a hotel. They want turndown service. They want like the fancy chocolate on your nightstand. Now, [00:33:00] these Airbnb property managers, they’re holding the bag because they’re not getting enough bookings to cover their monthly payments back to the bank for those mortgages.

[00:33:10] And it puts them in a tricky situation. So my thing here is, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. In theory, some of those tips work in a perfect world if you are able to find the right business and it makes sense and you know what you’re doing. There’s a lot of pitfalls you could potentially fall into, such as that suddenly people don’t want to come to your business anymore.

[00:33:35] But it’s just being mindful about like, what is your risk appetite, one. And two, how much time are you actually willing to dedicate to this? Because you’re not going to find the perfect business. Make sure it’s cash flowing. Make sure you’re also doing potential updates and renovations to keep it cash flowing while having a day job.

[00:33:53] Like, that’s a lot of work. And maybe some people want to take that on. I wouldn’t.

[00:33:58] LM: Yeah. A hundred percent. [00:34:00] Okay, let’s dive into side hustles for a second. We have a listener who writes, I am in my 16th year at my publishing job in Boston where the cost of living is expensive. I make under 60K. And I have no time for a second job, but I need more money.

[00:34:13] Are any side hustles legit? Are they too good to be true? Where can I start? There are certainly tons of side hustles

[00:34:20] VT: that are available to you that you can do. while having a full time job, even if you don’t feel like you necessarily have a ton of other time to dedicate to them. I think it really depends on why this person wants to have more money coming in.

[00:34:35] Is it for a short term goal? So, like, they want to buy a car. Or is it for a long term goal of, like, I would like to have more money saved up for retirement? If it’s a short term goal, I just say grit your teeth, pick up a post work job. Like, go walk dogs after you’ve done a lot of. mental labor during the day.

[00:34:52] You work in publishing, you’re probably sitting at a computer, you’re probably like hunched over like a little shrimp like I am, and doing something that’s very [00:35:00] different from your day job may not be the worst thing. Like, go walk dogs on Rover or WAG. If it’s because you want more money coming in over time, That’s a harder conversation and we need to be really mindful.

[00:35:13] If you’ve been in a job for 16 years, you should have the experience and the ability to really negotiate your income and negotiate your annual pay. And what I always tell people is that if you are not doing the up or out method every two years, you’re probably underpaid. So up or out works like this.

[00:35:34] Every two years, you need to be getting a meaningful raise or promotion. Or you need to go somewhere else where you will get a meaningful pay increase. Forbes did a study that people who stay at jobs for longer than two years, over the course of their lifetime, get paid half as much. Half! Can you afford to get paid half as much?

[00:35:56] No! Nobody can! So, I think there was a [00:36:00] big emphasis on being a company man, being loyal, back in our parents generations, but it’s because they had a reason to be loyal. They had pension plans! People And pension plans are like 401ks, except better in literally every way. Instead of you setting money aside for you in retirement, you picking the investments, you taking all that risk, your company did it.

[00:36:25] And the longer you stayed somewhere, the more money they guaranteed you every single month in retirement. And so people didn’t stay at companies for big pay bumps. They stayed for fat pension checks. When they were old and gray with the rise of the 401k immediately pensions disappeared companies were like pension who we don’t know her and Now we have to take care of ourselves So you can’t afford to be loyal you need to look out for number one You need to make sure your money’s right And if where you’re currently at is not valuing the work that you do if you are not getting a meaningful raise every two years You need to go [00:37:00] somewhere else and especially in a space like publishing certainly Yes, it’s not going to be as lucrative as a finance or a law or a consulting.

[00:37:08] We get that. Is there a firm that is going to allow you to become a senior editor? Or is there a firm that’s going to allow you to become the senior PR leader, the senior marketing person, or maybe even run a smaller imprint or something like that? That’s going to give you that rock wall ability to jump from here to here to here.

[00:37:28] So that you can get your money right while also advancing your career.

[00:37:32] LM: I’m also a huge fan of thinking in terms of your skills, not just your job title when you’re making those moves. Like I came up in the editorial world in New York. It’s not a very highly paid world. And I have a lot of friends who work in tech now as content designers and they’re using a lot of those same skills I use the skills I learned in editorial every single day in my job now, so I don’t think it has to be The title, you can also think broadly using the skills.

[00:37:54] I talk about this in my

[00:37:55] VT: book, Rich AF. You should not be thinking about your skills like a [00:38:00] ladder. They always say the corporate ladder. It’s not a ladder. It’s a rock wall. Sometimes you’ve got to go left or right, and sometimes you’ve got to go back to be able to jump to the next handhold or foothold.

[00:38:10] And the reason for that is, is if you are doing PR at a publishing company, you know you can do a PR at a bank, right? You know you can do PR at a tech company. You know you can do PR for big name celeb clients. I promise you, PR in some of those industries pays a lot better than PR in other industries.

[00:38:27] And the same thing goes for accounting, the same thing goes for your skills. If you are an editor at a publisher, would you make more working at a newspaper? Would you make more working at a magazine? Would you make more working at a digital publication? You gotta think about what you can bring. You don’t have to go from the same title to the same title at a different company.

[00:38:49] LM: Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, let’s do, we’re trying to do a light FIRE, which I’d love you to summarize for us what that means. And we’re really struggling with balancing enjoying life now and [00:39:00] saving to enjoy life later. We would love any tips for how to approach this. Okay, so FIRE stands for

[00:39:04] VT: Financial Independence Retire Early.

[00:39:06] The light version of that is. They’re not only eating rice and beans, and they buy shoes at stores instead of making them out of burlap sacks. Thank you for that hearty laugh, by the way. I feel like a comedian. Light fire is a great thing for people to practice, but I want everyone to be mindful that, like, There’s levels to this.

[00:39:27] For some people, they have different goals. Again, the 30 year old who retires at 30 and lives in an Airstream, that is like true, true, really, really hardcore fire. You are going to have to cut back on what you’re eating. You don’t have a Netflix subscription. You don’t do anything fun, but you get to retire at 30.

[00:39:43] That’s sick. That’s something to be proud of. If you guys are having a hard time balancing your current enjoyment today versus what you want for the future, I think you need to sit down and have a conversation and ask, is it worth it? Because [00:40:00] are the extra two years you might have to work worth the fact that you can now still take a vacation every year?

[00:40:06] Is that worth it? For me, the answer would be yes. I personally don’t mind working. I think even after I quote unquote, retire. I’ll have a job. It just may not be a job where I have to work 80 hours a week. It might be me working part time for a philanthropic. organization and I sit on the board or something like that.

[00:40:28] One thing that I take issue with, with the FIRE movement though, is people are like, oh yeah, financial independence, like retire early. And then they retire early and they start touting the FIRE movement. And they sell like courses. They become like gurus. And I’m like, no, no, no, no. This is not financial independence, retire early.

[00:40:45] You didn’t retire, you just got a different job. And that’s okay, you got a job that you like better. But I don’t think this is, by definition, fire. Because you’re not doing the rrr. And so, I think it’s just really important for all of us to have [00:41:00] realistic expectations. And be like, it’s okay to want to go get coffee once a week.

[00:41:05] Like, the little treat is not going to be the difference between whether you get to like, live a comfortable life or don’t. But, all of those little coffees over time might be the difference between whether you retire a year or two early. And so I just think they need to sit down and determine what is currently missing from their life and what would be additive right now, how much it would cost each year, and how much that would set them back in time, and if it’s worth it.

[00:41:31] I have a comment and a question. Yeah.

[00:41:33] LM: Comment is that have been so much in the course world. People are like, I can teach you to make millions of dollars with courses, but the courses that they are teaching are courses on how to sell courses. And I’m like, this is just an MLM all the way down. It makes me so angry when I see that online, I find it very frustrating.

[00:41:49] My question is, do you have any advice for figuring out what ways we can spend our money that will actually make us happy? Because I think that’s at the root of this question a little bit is like, I [00:42:00] want to enjoy my life. But. Is the coffee going to make me enjoy it? Like, what are the ways I can spend that’s going to make a difference?

[00:42:05] VT: Yeah. I think this is my favorite thing to do. I call it the You’re Rich BFF, is it worth it equation? Before you buy something, whether it’s an experience, whether it’s a product, I calculate the cost of that thing divided by my hourly take on pay. This is what I get paid after taxes. So say, let’s use an easy number.

[00:42:22] Say I make 20 an hour. Suddenly, that DoorDash sandwich. Is one hour of work. Is that worth it? Those Lululemon yoga pants, if they’re 80 bucks, that’s four hours of work. Is it worth it? That vacation is A ton of hours, whatever it costs. This helps me determine would I be willing to sit at my desk or do my job for the amount of time that I need to trade of my life for that thing.

[00:42:49] In my reality, this has helped me justify the most extravagant vacations. It’s always allowed me to justify spending money on food. I don’t buy clothes full price though [00:43:00] anymore. Even the designer stuff I try to buy overseas so I can get a VAT refund. I try to get on sale. I go to Marshalls. I’m looking around at all the good stuff because.

[00:43:10] I value certain things over others, and depending on who you are, you might value something more than I do or something less, and this is how you decide what’s going to actually spark joy. Not everything can spark joy, though. You can’t spend on literally everything,

[00:43:25] LM: but.

[00:43:25] VT: There’s a rank,

[00:43:27] LM: for sure. And I do think social media can skew that rank, which brings me to my next question.

[00:43:32] How can people afford travel, especially as a single person traveling alone where you can’t split hotel costs? Normal life is so expensive, yet I see people on social media taking lavish vacations. Okay, let me address this question

[00:43:44] VT: after I address the social media thing, because, girly, some of your friends are in credit card debt.

[00:43:50] The grass is not always greener on the other side. You gotta remember social media is a high light reel. Even myself, like, I’m gonna show you the fun stuff I’m doing. I’m not gonna show you [00:44:00] how my flight got delayed by six hours and I was laying down on the ground at the airport. That’s not fun or sexy.

[00:44:05] I am not going to show some of the worst moments. As a creator, I think we’ve started to be a little bit more transparent, but like, you are literally seeing the best of what every single person is doing, and that’s a problem. Because, back in our parents generation, that’s They had keeping up with the Joneses.

[00:44:21] They would look out their front window at the Joneses and be like, The Joneses got a new station wagon! Or like, The Joneses got a flat screen TV. But they were limited by proximity. They could really only look at people in their own financial situation. There was the one neighbor that had the house on the hill that was slightly more well to do, but most people in that neighborhood have a similar income.

[00:44:44] Suddenly, proximity is completely not a barrier anymore because social media has made it so easy for us to literally look into the lives, intimately, of some of the richest people on Earth. You’re seeing Kim K on a private jet, you start to think [00:45:00] private jet riding is normal. Private jetmost people in their entire lifetime will never be on a private jet.

[00:45:05] Do not get it twisted. Just because you’re seeing that doesn’t mean it’s a reality for most people and that it’s accessible for most people. And keeping up with the Joneses has become keeping up with the Kardashians. And suddenly, you’re not just seeing the life of one family that you’re comparing yourself to.

[00:45:21] You’re comparing yourself to every single one of your friends all at once. And that’s the problem. Because if you were just comparing yourself to one friend, you’d be like, oh, friend went on vacation for one week this summer. to X, Y, Z place. Great. But now you’re saying friend A went to Greece, friend B went to Italy, friend C went to the south of France, friend D went to Cabo, and you think you need to be on vacation 24 7 because your friends are on vacation 24 7, but it’s only one friend at a time.

[00:45:53] But you’re seeing 24 7 vacation content. And so it becomes very hard to discern between what is reality [00:46:00] and what is just timing. And what is just the highlight reel. And frankly, a lot of these people, they’re split in the rooms eight ways. They’re sleeping on the ground. They are getting that share house with 30 people in it.

[00:46:10] They are flying middle seat economy in the back. The seat does not recline. It’s next to the bathroom. They are not having a good time. On parts of that trip, they’re not showing it to you. They are showing you the one dinner that they saved up and splurged on after eating power bars for three meals in a row.

[00:46:25] to show you the Michelin star restaurant they went to. They are not actually staying at that hotel. They bought a day pass to the beach club. It’s not as rosy as it looks.

[00:46:34] LM: Which goes back to the conversation we were having about how are we going to spend money that will actually make us happy. Yes.

[00:46:40] Because I do think a lot of of what social media has done to our spending habits is we spend money to look happy and look aspirational versus is this fun for me?

[00:46:49] VT: I mean, think about what tourism has become. It’s not even about, oh, did you enjoy and soak in the cultural enjoyment of the Taj Mahal? It’s did you go and stand far enough away to put your fingers at the very [00:47:00] top and pretend you’re holding it?

[00:47:01] Everybody is going to travel or doing these things to show you that they did it versus actually enjoying the experience. I think it’s hard and I say this from a very hypocritical lens because As someone who makes a living online, like, I have to document a lot of what I’m doing. That means that the moments that I don’t show you are all that much more special to me.

[00:47:19] As for how somebody can afford more travel as a young person, they want to get out there, and they don’t want to blow their budget or the bank. I want to applaud you for wanting to be mindful of your finances while doing this. I think the easiest thing to do is be a responsible credit card user. People often associate bad, scary feelings with credit cards because you can get into trouble.

[00:47:45] If you are a responsible credit card user, you pay your debt off every single month in full on time. You will never pay a dollar in interest, likely earn points and rewards, and if you get a Typically, those rewards can be [00:48:00] redeemed for free flights, for hotels, and that is going to help cover the two largest costs of you going on vacation.

[00:48:07] So say you open up a new credit card, they have a welcome bonus, you gotta spend XYZ amount within the first three months, you do, you pay it off in full on time, now you’ve got 80, 000 points, you get a ticket somewhere. You get a hotel room, you pay for everything else, your dining, whatever, in cash.

[00:48:24] Suddenly, your trip only costs those meals, and you probably were going to have to feed yourself back home anyway. So it becomes a much more reasonable and manageable expense that you can do more often. And being smart with credit cards is truly a life hack. Because I have saved thousands of dollars over my years using those credit card points.

[00:48:45] People are like, oh man, like you flew to Italy, lay flat, first class, got champagne as you as soon as you hit the seat. That flight’s eight grand. If you book the flight twelve months out, you pay on points, you transfer from one airline to their [00:49:00] partner airline, and suddenly it’s. 75, 000 points, which on a dollar per dollar conversion is about 750.

[00:49:07] LM: To do the next vacation, though, do you need to open a new credit card, or is it just going to be enough from accumulating points on whatever credit card you’ve opened? Not necessarily, because depending on

[00:49:16] VT: which credit card you get, and you want to make sure the credit card you get is the right one, based on your regular spending.

[00:49:21] You might even still be able to hit certain multipliers or kickers that’ll give you extra points. There are cards that are out there for folks who are heads of household and spend all their money on gas and groceries. There are cards out there for people who are like me, a yuppie who lives in a major metro.

[00:49:36] I spend all of my money dining out and traveling. Based on what you’re already spending your money on, get a credit card that’s going to reward you in that way. And then you can use those rewards to make sure that your next trip’s paid for. How do you find which one is right for you? There is a good quiz that I love on smartasset.

[00:49:52] com. Just search smartasset, best credit card for me quiz, run through the quiz, and figure out based on your spending [00:50:00] habits what credit card might make sense for you.

[00:50:01] LM: Love that. Okay. I don’t drink alcohol and my friends usually do when we go out.

[00:50:05] VT: Oh!

[00:50:06] LM: The last few times I’ve had dinner with them, they have asked to split the check equally.

[00:50:10] How do I tell them that doesn’t seem fair without hurting their feelings?

[00:50:13] VT: No, I think It’s setting open communication and being honest. So, for everybody’s knowledge, I actually also don’t really drink that often. I’ll probably drink four or five times a year. It’s always on a really crazy night out, like a bachelorette or somebody’s wedding, and I only do shots of tequila because I’m terrifying.

[00:50:33] But if we’re going out to dinner with friends, I don’t get that glass of wine. I don’t get a beer. I don’t get a cocktail. And there have been many instances where I’m like, Mm, y’all each had four cocktails, each of which were 22. Like, each of you racked up 88 in drinks, and I had a Diet Coke. At the financial state that I’m at now, it doesn’t make as much of a difference for me, so I’m just happy to subsidize their drinking.

[00:50:58] It’s nice to see my friends. [00:51:00] But you can also just be really transparent and be like, Hey, would love to grab dinner with you guys. Let Only thing I do want to call out is I’m on a little bit of a budget, I have something coming up, I’m saving for, I want to be mindful, I know everybody here drinks, do you guys mind if we itemize the bill?

[00:51:15] If your friends say, no, they’re not your friends, they’re bad, they are bad from the inside out, I think most reasonable friends will say, yeah, of course, that seems fair. And there are tons of apps now, including like a Tab or a Splitwise, that’ll help you do that. While we’re talking about paying for things, who do you

[00:51:33] LM: think should pay on the first date?

[00:51:35] Oh, boy, sorry. If it’s a heterosexual relationship, boy, without a doubt. Okay, what if it’s not? If it’s not, I think whoever invites should pay. Okay. So I have a question about this. I think it’s gotten tricky in the times of apps. Yes. Because it used to be, oh, you’d meet out. You’d vibe a little bit. Somebody would ask me on a date.

[00:51:52] You already know you like them. But I actually do feel for Men, because they’re asking out so many women on Tinder dates or [00:52:00] Bumble dates or Hinge dates or whatever. And then you go on, what, like four dates a week and you have to pay for all of those? And you don’t even know if you like the person until the date’s over?

[00:52:07] Yeah. Listen, if you’re the guy

[00:52:09] VT: and you know for a fact that you do never want to see this person again. You can ask them to split the bill. They ate half the food, they drank half the drinks. You are entitled to that. If you are into somebody, you’re courting them, you’re having a good time, and you want a second date, let me just tell you, go ahead and pay that bill.

[00:52:24] Do not ask them to split it because the odds of you getting a second date, if you don’t immediately come off as generous, goes down. They did a poll on women of, Would you go on a second date with someone, you had a great date, but they asked you to split the bill? Whoever invites should pay on a regular sense.

[00:52:45] Typically, I would say, in many cases in a heterosexual relationship, it’s the guy who offers, so they should be paying. In a same sex relationship, it’s truly whoever offers. And whoever feels so compelled. If there are dates that I’ve been on and I’m [00:53:00] not vibing them, and I know I’m never gonna see them again, I’m like, oh sure, let’s split it.

[00:53:03] I’ll never talk to you again. I don’t want to have any reason to owe you anything. If I’m really into somebody and they offer to pay, I’m like, yeah, that’s nice. It’s chivalrous. Romance is not dead. Call me old fashioned, but it’s nice to know that someone out there is going to, and I quote, provide for me.

[00:53:19] I’m not just talking about the money of being able to feed me for 90 minutes. I’m talking about the money. This person is thoughtful, this person is conscientious of the time and effort that it took for me to get into this date. The fact that I had to put on a whole thing of makeup, I had to do my hair, I had to put on a cute little dress, like, I really think it’s all about that thought that really counts.

[00:53:39] And, if you can’t afford that first date to pay for it, and you were the one who invited, Pick a cheaper date. Yeah, like a walk in a park. Walk in a park. You can easily go get ice cream. You can easily go get a coffee. You can easily go do whatever. You can also just go to a restaurant that is Not a hundred dollars an entree.

[00:53:59] Go somewhere like low [00:54:00] key. Go get tacos. It’s okay to have less committal first dates if you’re still willing to be generous and show it’s the thought that counts.

[00:54:07] LM: What would you say to the guy who says, I don’t want to show that I’m a provider because we’re all equal and you might make more money than me ultimately in our relationship and I might be a stay at home dad.

[00:54:15] Why do I have to prove that I’m the provider from the get go? You don’t. But there are going to be a lot of women who don’t

[00:54:20] VT: want to date that type. And I think that limits your dating pool. I think we are allowed to have whatever financial and money views we want, but that’s not without consequence.

[00:54:31] Based on the fact that we live in a patriarchal society, women have been told that we should want a provider. And frankly, I have a very, like, hot take here. Now that I am in a very, very stable financial position on my own, I’m the breadwinner. My husband makes an incredible living. I am still the breadwinner.

[00:54:51] I feel like if the only thing that you can bring to the table as a partner is money, you are an incredibly poor person because [00:55:00] over time, all of the things that I truly valued about my partner. It had less and less to do with money and more and more to do with what he was able to provide me outside of it.

[00:55:12] It’s encouragement, that compassion, that conscientiousness of you take a career risk, I’ll support us. It wasn’t about the actual money fact that he was going to help pay our rent if I couldn’t make it. It was the fact that he said, I am here to provide for you, to protect you, to keep you safe. You take a big swing.

[00:55:30] I don’t want to speak for everybody, but for a lot of women and a lot of people, they want a partner who loves them for who they are. It’s going to provide for them in more ways than

[00:55:39] LM: just financially. I think that’s fair. Let’s do, my husband and I want to have children, but we’re also stressed about money already.

[00:55:44] How much should finances factor into the decision to have children? Are there any questions I should ask myself or things I should be specifically thinking about or problem solving for?

[00:55:53] VT: Yeah. This person asking this question is already in a much better position than many [00:56:00] parents because they’re asking if they should be caring about finances.

[00:56:04] Thank you. And the answer is yes, but if you’re asking that question already, it tells me you don’t have that blind spot. There are many people who are so excited to have children, they don’t even think about money, when children are the most expensive thing. Do you know what diapers cost? But outside of just diapers, do you know what it costs to feed a child?

[00:56:24] Do you know what it costs to send them to school? Whether it’s private school, But even public school, you have to buy the supplies,

[00:56:31] LM: you have to pay for clothes, and daycare, like all of this. Yeah, if you want to go back to work, I have friends who are spending more on daycare than they make at their

[00:56:37] VT: job.

[00:56:37] Correct. So then they stay home, and they’re like, okay, well now I’m a stay at home parent. What does that mean for the family financial dynamic? There are so many questions to be asking. I think they’re already off on a really great start asking this question. I would sit down with you and your partner and actually forecast out for the next five years what you think you guys will make, what you’d like to set aside for savings and [00:57:00] investing as it currently stands, and where you would be able to cut back in your life what that dollar would actually amount to, and would it be enough to help cover some of these expenses that Your child would incur.

[00:57:14] Listen, things happen. Maybe somebody gets laid off. Maybe one of you gets an amazing promotion. And suddenly this conversation is mute. You got to do it all again. But as much foresight and planning that you can build into it, the better. And one thing that you guys can even start now, Whether you decide right now or maybe a year from now or two years from now is the right time to have a kid is starting a kiddo sinking fund.

[00:57:37] This is essentially where you just set aside a little bit of money every single week or every single month for a goal. Suddenly, you don’t have to rip out 3, 000 out of your pocket to give birth at a hospital because, don’t even get me started, medical costs in the U. S. are astronomical and they shouldn’t be.

[00:57:54] But, if you’re putting aside A hundred bucks every single month, or a couple twenties every single [00:58:00] week. By the time you are ready to actually have that conversation, even if you get pregnant tomorrow and you have a kid in nine months, you are going to be in a better financial position than if you were to start saving as soon as the kid’s born.

[00:58:13] So start preparing early, have those conversations, and do a little bit of mapping. And I think that’ll be the three steps they’d want to take.

[00:58:20] LM: My parents are in their early 70s and haven’t saved for retirement and don’t think it’s a big deal. I can’t budget to take care of them and it’s causing me a lot of anxiety.

[00:58:29] What should I do? Wow. Okay. What I gotta

[00:58:32] VT: say is Your parents financial traumas and financial mistakes are not yours. You should focus on maximizing your financial stability so when the time does eventually come you can help them however you can. However, there are services, whether through governmental agencies, [00:59:00] whether through local communities, that can help your parents.

[00:59:05] I do not recommend. You putting your life on pause to help them eke out some sort of retirement because that’s going to set you back far enough. I think there needs to be a real sit down with mom and dad to be like, you have nothing safe for retirement. What is your plan? Maybe the plan is that they just keep working

[00:59:27] LM: until they die.

[00:59:27] What if their plan, and I see this in a lot of my friends, is yeah, is you’ll

[00:59:32] VT: take care of me. I think she needs to have an honest conversation there. And I know it’s hard because coming from an immigrant background. There are so many of us whose parents retirement plan is them, but you should really, really focus on putting yourself on as stable as possible of financial footing so that in the future you can help them, but you should not help them at the cost of your own financial footing because that’ll put everybody in a precarious situation.

[00:59:57] And the hope is that if they [01:00:00] truly have nothing saved, they have no assets, there are programs that they’ve likely paid into their entire lifetimes. Because they’re 70 now, they’ve probably paid into basic social services and social security and hopefully they can get Medicaid, so they’ll have health insurance and have a little bit of money coming in.

[01:00:19] But, again, I don’t encourage

[01:00:22] LM: people to go into retirement with nothing. Do you have any advice for one, having those harder conversations with your parents, and two, how to deal with the guilt that your parents financial lives didn’t end up the The way that they wanted or you wanted for them.

[01:00:34] VT: These conversations suck.

[01:00:36] They’re not easy. Especially when you’re looking somebody in the eye who maybe gave you a really incredible life. Their own expense. I think it’s being solutions oriented and not beating them up about it. That conversation’s not gonna go well. Look up resources. That can actually help them with their current situation, whether it’s social security, whether it’s making sure that they’re able to get health [01:01:00] insurance, making sure that those needs are going to be taken care of, if they can get into a facility, something like that, but it’s not an easy conversation, and I think the easiest way to address it is is over food and with a solutions oriented mindset because nobody wants to hear that they made a big mistake.

[01:01:18] And the guilt? The guilt? This is a hard question for me to answer because I would be so guilt ridden. I’m the only daughter of Chinese immigrants. I think you have to acknowledge that at a certain point, doing right by you, Yeah. And then once you are able to get yourself into a better position, you can help them as much as you humanly

[01:01:39] LM: possibly can.

[01:01:40] Okay, let’s do this as the last one. Yeah. My friends are causing huge lifestyle creep. I notice myself buying clothes that are more expensive. We go to expensive restaurants. We take expensive trips. I want to hang out with them, but I’m starting to feel like I have to choose a life I can’t afford or to be lonely.

[01:01:56] How? This is

[01:01:58] VT: one of my favorite questions because it [01:02:00] happens so often, and it’s like, can I afford my friends? Like, probably? But what you really should be doing is offering an instead. So, say, you call me, and you’re like, hey, Viv, want to go to Omakase Sushi on Friday? And I’m like, I cannot afford Omakase Sushi on Friday.

[01:02:20] But I’m like, all right, I really want to see Liz. I want to make sure she still likes me. We’re still friends. I’m going to say, hey, Liz. Unfortunately, I’m saving for some stuff. The budget does not have omakase in it right now, but I would still love to see you. Don’t feel the need to hold yourself back if you want to go grab sushi Friday night, but I’d love to see you Saturday night.

[01:02:39] Can we order a pizza and watch a movie at my apartment? The instead of option shows your friend. You care about hanging out with them and spending time with them. And ultimately, that’s what all of these things are, right? You’re going on these vacations, you’re going on these dinners, you’re hanging out because you like these people.

[01:02:55] Spending that quality time together is the most important part. Activity [01:03:00] can vary. And some of these activities are very expensive, such as a week long trip to Mexico, or maybe we take a long weekend down in Florida. That’s going to be a lot more manageable. I encourage this person to think about what she actually likes about her friends.

[01:03:16] Why she feels so compelled to keep up with them. Would they make her feel bad if she didn’t? And that’s going to answer the question of, are these friends really worth your time?

[01:03:26] LM: If you’re on the flip side and you’re like, I’ve worked really hard. I just want to take nice vacations. That’s important to me.

[01:03:33] Is the answer to that, you do that, but then you also make time to do stuff with a friend who isn’t in that financial place? Absolutely. So

[01:03:40] VT: all of my friends are broke. I joke because I am the dumbest one of all of my college girlfriends. They all went on to get secondary degrees. I got my bachelor’s by the skin of my teeth and I was like, Ooh, get me out of here.

[01:03:50] So I started my career immediately. They went on to graduate school, so now they have debt, and they ended up in these incredibly good [01:04:00] careers, quote unquote good careers. Like, my best friend is a plastic surgeon. She’s a plastic surgery resident, though, right now, making maybe 60, 000 a year, working 120 hours a week.

[01:04:13] So like, what’s the per hour on that? I don’t know. Horrible. And I want to do fun things. I want to also spend time with her. I would never ask her. Hey, do you want to go havesies on a weekend in the Hamptons? I’m always open having her come over or do something fun. And half the time, because I’m in the financial position I’m in, I’ll say, I’ll just cover dinner.

[01:04:41] It’s not a big deal. This person brings so much more to my life than just dollar signs. She brings joy and humor and happiness and laughter. And she is my biggest cheerleader. I think we need to consider our friendships as a cost benefit analysis. When you leave a hangout, do you feel better or worse? I have some [01:05:00] people in my life that I finish hanging out with them and I just feel like I got all of the energy sucked out of me, like a death eater.

[01:05:07] And then there are people that I hang out with them, after I leave I’m like, why don’t I see that person more? They just infused, like, I don’t know, caffeine into me. Like, it just feels like I’m so energized. That tells you something. You’ve got to spend a lot more time with vitamin C friends than Death Eater friends.

[01:05:24] And money is not the only currency between people.

[01:05:27] LM: I love that. Like, you would be more willing to put a little bit more money, which is a currency you have right now, into those people who are going to fill you up in all these different ways. I love that. I think that’s beautiful. This was such a fun conversation.

[01:05:40] Can you take a second and just tell us a little bit about where people can find you and also anything that you want to share that you’re working on? Thank you again for having me. Everybody listening,

[01:05:48] VT: you can find me as yourrichbff all over social media. And if you are interested in getting a copy of my New York Times bestselling book, check out richaf.

[01:05:58] [01:06:00] me. Yes, I made the URL, a manifestation. So richaf. me to grab a copy of my book and you can check out my podcast, Net Worth and Chill.

[01:06:06] LM: Amazing. I love your podcast. Also, your book is just like everything you do, you take this stuff that feels like it’s scary and hard and you make it so fun and so accessible and it’s just so needed right now.

[01:06:16] So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. That’s all for this episode of the Liz Moody podcast. If you love this episode, one of the best ways that you can support the pod is by sending a link to your friends, your family, your partner, your coworkers, you name it. You’re helping grow the podcast and you’re helping the people you love change their lives.

[01:06:35] If you’re new to the podcast, welcome. I’m so glad that you’re here. Make sure that you’re following the podcast on whatever platform you like to listen on. You’re going to go to the main podcast page. That’s the one that lists all of the Liz Moody podcast episodes, and you will see the word follow under the logo on Spotify.

[01:06:51] And then there’s a little follow with a plus sign button on the top right of that same page on Apple Podcasts. This way you will not miss out on any new episodes. They will [01:07:00] appear right in your feed every single Wednesday and every single Monday. Okay. I love you. And I will see you on the next episode of the Liz Moody podcast.

[01:07:08] Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.