I Did An 8 Day Meditation Retreat To Rewire My Brain For Joy—Here Are My Biggest Takeaways

[00:00:00] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we’re sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I am your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. And today I’m joined by a very, very special guest, my husband, Zach.

[00:00:17] So Zach and I just got back from an eight day silent, mostly silent, we will talk about that later, meditation retreat. And in this episode, we are going to talk about what that was like, what our days looked like. I feel like meditation retreats are so mysterious. And before I went on one, I was like, what are people doing every single day?

[00:00:35] And also how it changed us, how it impacted us, if we would recommend it and things that we learned. I think that anybody can take advantage of whether or not you feel like going on a meditation retreat or not. We meditated. So if you don’t want to, you don’t have to. Although I actually do think there’s a lot of value in this space.

[00:00:53] type of retreat environment, which we’ll get into down the line. But let’s just start off with what is it like to be on a [00:01:00] meditation retreat? Like what is the shape of every single day? And that is a lot of meditating.

[00:01:06] ZM: This retreat had a lot of meditating,

[00:01:08] LM: a lot of meditating. And I think that is the norm on meditation retreats.

[00:01:13] And the way it worked in this retreat was we would meet as a group after breakfast every single day at 8 a. m. We would work together as a group from 30. That could be a Q& A session. It would be a guided meditation session. It would be explaining some sort of technique. And then they set you loose, and you actually are instructed to design your own schedule for the day, and that’s part of this process.

[00:01:36] This particular style of retreat, which we’ll get into later, is developed around a specific type of meditation. It has a very specific approach, and one of their mottos is experiment like a scientist, play like a kid. Did I get that right?

[00:01:50] ZM: That sounds semantically correct.

[00:01:53] LM: So they’re teaching you this technique, and then you’re going off and you’re running your own experiments with the technique.

[00:01:58] So other than the [00:02:00] meditating, we had three meals a day, which were really delicious. And also, I was very surprised by how hungry I was. I don’t eat like three square meals a day. And I certainly do not eat dinner at 530 right after I’ve eaten lunch at like 12. It was a lot of meals in a very short amount of time.

[00:02:17] and I felt shockingly ravenous.

[00:02:19] ZM: Same. It makes you realize that meditation is not just like a lay around sport. Like it’s taking some energy from you. And that is all for primarily, I think, all up in the brains, the brains area,

[00:02:32] LM: the brains area. Okay. So then we also had a Yoga session once a day, which I love.

[00:02:37] This retreat single handedly got me back into yoga and like feeling the value of yoga in my body. We went last night as

[00:02:44] ZM: soon as we got home.

[00:02:44] LM: Yeah, it was, and that was awesome. We did yin yoga, which is very much not moving.

[00:02:52] ZM: Great thing to do. So

[00:02:54] LM: you do that. And then you also do these things called practice interviews, which is when you get to meet with [00:03:00] facilitators and you get to talk, which is nice because again, it’s mostly silent and you get to ask them your questions and troubleshoot any issues that you’re running into.

[00:03:09] So that’s one thing. And then at dinner, starting on day. Four

[00:03:15] ZM: or five, somewhere in the middle, midway point.

[00:03:17] LM: They started to let you talk, but only about the meditation practice.

[00:03:21] ZM: And only at dinner for an hour.

[00:03:22] LM: And only at dinner for an hour.

[00:03:23] ZM: Just to get a better idea of other people’s progress and experiences and sharing information.

[00:03:29] Because again, it’s a very experimental minded thing. Group and everyone’s kind of like well this worked for me really well when I did X and Y and Z.

[00:03:37] LM: Or these are the struggles that I’m running into. That

[00:03:39] ZM: too.

[00:03:40] LM: And then after dinner you go back and do one more session for an hour and a half That’s Q& A’s, but sometimes a guided meditation, and then you go meditate more And then you go to sleep.

[00:03:51] ZM: Some of my most effective Meditations and really how I racked up the hours were like after dinner after that session From somewhere between like 8 to 9[00:04:00]

[00:04:03] LM: I want to describe my arc on retreat a little bit because I wasn’t sure how I’d react, like if I’d be able to sink right in, when it would feel difficult, when it would feel easy. And I’d say the first day, I felt really good. Like the meditation felt exciting. I was into it. And then day two and day three were my hardest days, a hundred percent.

[00:04:23] I felt very antsy. I felt very bored. I felt very Annoyed, almost like who’s making me do this and can I speak to their manager? Essentially, I think it’s almost like important for me to note that in case anybody’s listening. Cause I do think it’s almost like important to acknowledge that there could be sort of like a difficulty hump.

[00:04:48] And once I could get over that attention and boredom hurdle, which makes sense because in our daily lives, we’re subject to so much stimuli. And then. It’s like you waved a magic wand and all of it is gone. You’re not allowed [00:05:00] to use technology. So I was not on my phone. I was not talking. Not really like doing anything and every day.

[00:05:08] So I do think that reaction was expected. And also, I think most importantly, I was shocked by how much it went away. My attention progressively day by day got so much better. And by the end, my ability to Focus and my desire to be scrolling on Instagram, to be on my phone, to be constantly entertained was so much lower.

[00:05:28] Ability to focus higher. Distraction and ability to be distracted was so much lower. And I even noticed in the way that I was walking, for instance, my steps felt slower. When I was brushing my teeth, I wasn’t like this. bored and wanting to do something else in that moment. And it was just, it was, it’s such a crazy difference by the end of the retreat.

[00:05:48] The way that I felt in my body and my mind, the slowness and the stillness that developed over that time. So that was one of the ways that it impacted me, this sense of, Stillness and [00:06:00] peace that I was able to access and I think I’m still going to hopefully be able to access going forward. But I think another thing to note is that this style of meditation is very different than any other that I’ve experienced.

[00:06:11] And some of the goals and purposes of this retreat are a bit different than other meditation retreats that I’ve been exposed to. This type of meditation retreat is based around the ideas of the jhanas or the jhana states. speak to that a little bit?

[00:06:26] ZM: Sure. I mean, I’ll do the best I can, but I am a novice in all of this, but I do actually plan on learning a lot more of this because I found either those states or proximity to those states to be really, really interesting for me.

[00:06:39] So the retreat name is called Journey and the J has an H after it, so it’s like Jah her nee, but pronounced Journey, because it is a retreat designed Um, specifically around a group of people got together and they basically figured out how to basically coach people into the area of [00:07:00] these, of these states quite quickly in a, in a matter, in a matter of days.

[00:07:04] These are concepts that tie to religious experiences, a ton of historical experiences. There’s, there’s literally like thousands of years of information about this that I know very little of. But what I understood was, hey, these are states or pre states or whatever that you can get into. that basically feel amazing.

[00:07:24] They, they feel like people describe MDMA. They feel like people describe revelatory and ecstatic experiences, and you can sustain them in meditative states for quite a long time. And it is supposed to, if possible, make the meditation very pleasurable and like something you actually want to sit in and experience for A big chunk of time.

[00:07:46] LM: Did you feel like it was like doing MDMA since you have indeed done MDMA?

[00:07:51] ZM: Yes. I basically got to enter some super resonant, beautiful mental states [00:08:00] that felt more like bliss than anything else I’ve experienced in like meditative or normal walking around like living your life life.

[00:08:09] LM: You said it was some of the best feelings that you’d had in like, a year.

[00:08:13] Recent memory and months, years, even

[00:08:15] ZM: 100 percent confirmed.

[00:08:16] LM: So let me describe briefly how this style of meditation differs from the other styles of meditation that I’ve at least encountered. I’m not an expert, but from what I can tell, there are a number of different styles of meditation. I have tried Vedic or transcendental meditation where you’re basically given a mantra and you repeat that mantra over and over and you’re continuously drawing your focus back to that We’ve also done a zen meditation retreat where where you’re constantly bringing your focus back to your breath, your inhale and your exhale.

[00:08:43] And whenever your mind wanders away, you’re bringing your focus back to your breath. In general, insofar as I can tell, this is what meditations have in common. Your focus is drawn away and you’re giving it something to bring it back to. So you’re gathering that concentration, you’re gathering [00:09:00] that focus around a thing or letting it rest on a thing.

[00:09:03] Another style of meditation is the meta practice, which is gathering your focus around. essentially thinking kind thoughts about yourself and other people. May I be happy. May this specific person be happy. May the whole world be happy. And you’re sending those positive feelings inward and outward. This is probably the style of meditation that is most similar to what we were doing.

[00:09:28] The idea with this practice is that the thing you are bringing your focus back to continuously is a positive emotion, whether that be. Joy, gratitude, compassion. Other ones that I’m not thinking of. Can you think of other ones?

[00:09:44] ZM: There’s, there’s a collection of shades of good time feelings that people have memories or thoughts or somatic responses to.

[00:09:51] And I think, I think, yeah, I think you, you named the big ones.

[00:09:53] LM: So people will engage with the practice in different ways because different types of techniques will work for [00:10:00] different people. So they want you to try all these different things, but some people will do more of a meta practice where they’re sending these good feelings inwards you.

[00:10:07] And then outwards, some people will just meditate on their smile, match a breath pattern to a smile. Some people will try to really conjure the feeling in their body. A memory is a really good thing. I was meditating for a while on the smell of Bella’s fur. I heard from a number of other people who would meditate on like the feeling of being in their partner’s arms.

[00:10:27] And so then when their attention would drift away, they would just try to conjure up again feeling of being in their partner’s arms. I love this. To me, this was like the unlock of the retreat. It’s huge because I think that when we think about how we want to feel in our day to day lives, to me, it is more joyful, more peaceful, more content, more grateful, all of these things, especially because of the stuff we talk about on this podcast.

[00:10:53] We had Rick Hansen on the podcast and he talked about how we can rewire our brains to feel more joy in our everyday lives you [00:11:00] By concentrating on and amplifying joyful feelings in our lives. One of the things they say is, come for the bliss, stay for the personal growth. And I think part of that personal growth component, and there’s a lot of parts and we’ll get into them, but part of that personal growth component is that it teaches you to appreciate things.

[00:11:17] It teaches you to notice great things and then appreciate them and appreciate the way your mind is thinking. processing them as well. Like, what a beautiful thing that I can feel gratitude like this. What a beautiful thing that I can feel love like this. What a beautiful thing that I can feel joy like this.

[00:11:34] You are training your brain to, to do that.

[00:11:38] ZM: And it takes hours, right? Like we’re talking about a lot of, relatively a lot of time for a week, basically telling yourself, really actually not telling, asking yourself. what creates joy in me? I know you and I had had kind of conversations either in the privacy of our our cabin or in some of the some of the dinner sessions about not knowing [00:12:00] offhand, you know, name five things that just to mine are just super joyous occurrences that you can just meditate on.

[00:12:08] And there’s there’s tons, there’s dozens, there’s hundreds of thousands, like But it takes bringing your attention to it a few times to really unlock your brain’s ability to say, Oh, there’s one. Oh, there’s another one. Oh, that time I was doing that, that’s definitely one. One of my big ones early on in the treat was skiing, right?

[00:12:27] Just picturing, literally picturing myself going down, down the mountain. And like, I’m a very like somatic, like physical thinking person. That sensation of going through fresh powder, that was, that was like one of the ways I, I first just. Start an experiment.

[00:12:43] LM: We’re meditating on your objects of joy. You’re trying to figure out what works for you to get into these states.

[00:12:48] But, I think that the practice of meditation just doing this meditation state or not. It’s the best meditation practice that I’ve ever found because it is [00:13:00] increasing your joy, increasing your gratitude, increasing your love, increasing your contentment. And it’s making you feel awe at your own mind and at the whole world.

[00:13:07] And we just had Dr. Keltner, my old professor on the podcast, and he talked about the Myriad health benefits of awe of what it does for our brains, what it does for our immune systems, what it does for our inflammation levels. There are so many benefits of awe, and this practice is literally designed to cultivate it.

[00:13:24] So I love the practice, which brings me to. Zach achieved these states. I did not. I did not. And that was actually really, really hard for me. And part of the day two to three arc for me was feeling kind of like a loser that I couldn’t get into these states that other people were accessing. I felt like something was wrong with me.

[00:13:47] I felt very self critical. And of course, when you get into a loop of self criticism and when you’re, you know, Criticizing your self criticism, and then feeling shame at that, and then criticizing your shame, you’re kind of in the opposite of the type of loop [00:14:00] you’re trying to get into. You’re spiraling away.

[00:14:02] I picture like the little man in space, like, floating away from the spaceship.

[00:14:06] ZM: Bad spiraling. Not good spiraling.

[00:14:08] LM: A hundred percent. So that was me on day two or three. And. I think on day, like, four, I just said, cool, I’m not gonna get into these Jhana states. If I do, amazing, great. But that’s no longer my goal.

[00:14:23] My goal is cultivating this practice because I could already see at that point what it was doing for the way that I interacted with the rest of the world and with my brain on a moment to moment basis. So I actually think that like you don’t even need to come for the bliss come for the personal growth And if you get the bliss like great super side effect,

[00:14:44] ZM: the bliss is a really good carrot

[00:14:45] LM: I will also say if you have a partner who is less interested in therapy But you maybe feel they might benefit from a therapeutic experience I kind of feel like this is like a tricky way to get a lot of those benefits

[00:14:59] ZM: Yeah, [00:15:00] if your partner is like man, I could really go to You Get hopped up on, on bliss right now.

[00:15:06] LM: Carrot.

[00:15:07] ZM: Yeah, carrot. And then are they going to get deeply in touch with their feelings and do forgiveness practices that make them cry? Also, carrot. But like, maybe, maybe like that’s the sneaky carrot in the back.

[00:15:21] LM: And I do think there was a lot of people there who said that they had felt numb for years or they got in touch with emotions that they hadn’t felt in a very long time.

[00:15:30] a lot of women and really a lot of men. Like, I think it was a really interesting thing to see men who felt like they perhaps didn’t have the freedom on a societal level or didn’t have access to these emotions, just like sobbing, joying, whatever that was. The opposite of that was the sobbing of joy.

[00:15:50] ZM: Sobbing with joy.

[00:15:51] LM: Yeah, sure. That you did that.

[00:15:53] ZM: Oh, I did that. I probably cried more on this retreat primarily in crying with joy, like tears of joy [00:16:00] than Well, certainly then, I don’t think I’ve ever cried tears of joy in, like, any sort of adult memory.

[00:16:09] LM: I can think of one.

[00:16:10] ZM: Except for our wedding. Close one, Zach.

[00:16:15] LM: So you did, you had this profoundly emotional moving experience. And I will also give a shout out for it as like a couple’s thing to do because we were able to then talk about like, Hey, you were crying a lot during this forgiveness meditation. what was coming up for you and I was able to

[00:16:30] ZM: Anything you want to share and, and, and I could, I could, you know, you can talk about parts about yourself that, that you want to forgive, parts of other people and other experience you’ve had you want to forgive.

[00:16:38] There’s a lot of space to reflect when you’re caught up in really positive feelings. I always think of like positive feelings as a, they give a lot of buffer for dealing and, and reframing and Kind of rechecking out and reprocessing and putting back away negative feelings [00:17:00] and that’s that’s just it’s it’s such a powerful tool To have at your disposal.

[00:17:04] You don’t leave the retreat and then and then lose the tools. So that’s

[00:17:07] LM: 100 percent

[00:17:08] ZM: well, maybe a little bit but like I will say so we’re like one day back and I was meditating today and Was surprised at how much less accessible those states were Um, when there’s work emails that I, that I really need to answer from the last week or, you know, something, something for plans later.

[00:17:28] It is a shout out to the retreat as a, as an entity that it gives you this, a container to really turn off the kind of mental poles that make it harder to enter more peaceful states.

[00:17:40] LM: A hundred percent. And it’s just a nice like jumpstart, like a refresh. You can reboot the computer and then you can be very intentional about the tabs that you have.

[00:17:50] Open after you reboot the computer. You learn these new techniques Reboot a bunch of new stuff. You have all these new emotions coming online all these new thoughts [00:18:00] all these new Neural patterns coming online and then you get to enter your life with that and while your life will still be your life You’re still gonna get your work emails the way that you relate to that life is going to be different whether or not you are Meditating whether or not you are Johnny or not So that said, what do you think is the impact that it had on you?

[00:18:18] ZM: People came up to me and commented to me, they were like, You’ve, a lot of the people I’ve seen look so much more at peace than when you showed up. I could feel like a lightness in my face. I could feel myself smiling more. I’m smiling more now. I felt more peaceful and just, I felt like I was in a really good place, you know, entering my, you know, Early morning Monday, zoom calls and stuff like that.

[00:18:43] I think I really did feel some unburdening about all sorts of aspects of my life that I might be less content with, uh, you know, more frustrated with. And I also feel like I have [00:19:00] a kind of a deep well of. Emotionality, and really flexibility in emotionality. This goes into a little bit more of the type of interest I have in this, but for me I really like the parts of this that kind of indicate that a lot of our feelings, our emotions, our sensations, it’s not that they’re illusions, but they’re a way of the thing you’re using to process the world helping you process the world.

[00:19:29] which is not the same thing as the things that kind of come, come at you from, from outside. Like the, the, the emotions are inside the house, so to speak. And if you learn that you can fiddle with the dials, it’s kind of freeing to know that actually, well, maybe me being angry about that is me being angry about that.

[00:19:50] Not that the thing that I’m angry about is anger inducing or something that is inherently bad. Well, it might be inherently bad, but like, you know, something that is, uh, [00:20:00] my, my reactions are mine.

[00:20:01] LM: I also just want to caveat that with a lot of other meditation styles that I’ve encountered seem like they’re sort of batting down the world a little bit.

[00:20:09] They’re a little bit numbing you to the world and I think this style feels like it’s helping you experience the world and experience your emotions more deeply. I always have this vibe when I’m learning new practices of I want and I’ll have what they’re having energy. Like if I’m going to learn something from you and you’re doing that thing, I want to be trying to get.

[00:20:28] where you are by doing whatever I’m going to learn. And this meditation practice, the people who were doing it felt so resonant to me. They just felt like they were living their lives the way that I want to live my life. They were laughing a lot. They were smiling. They were also feeling things, talking about emotions.

[00:20:46] They were embracing the beautiful nature and the wonderful, connections we were making. They were just living these deeply felt, deeply joyful lives. And I was like, Oh, I will have what they are [00:21:00] having.

[00:21:00] ZM: It’s actually so interesting. I, so I grew up in, in Berkeley, like, which is, you know, the Bay Area and especially this part of the Bay Area is like they’re, they’re centers for meditation and kind of like alternative spiritual practices.

[00:21:11] I have run into like a number of like long time meditators or people that have kind of like, let’s say work in the space and some not super deep. I’m, I’m, I’ve never been like. And big into these, these communities. But the people that always struck me the most, would, they’d always be 70, 80 year old that have like long flowing gray hair and they would just seem content.

[00:21:36] Like they seem like they were just all sorted. And I never really saw that in my generation or people, people in their lower decades. And. Um, it was, it was almost a little unnerving to, to, to walk in and be like, these people all look like really

[00:21:57] LM: satisfied, really

[00:21:58] ZM: satisfied, like really [00:22:00] happy, really satisfied.

[00:22:01] You know, I’m sure everybody’s happy being on a retreat to a certain extent, but it’s But there was an energy. You get to know them and you find out that, yeah, you know, like, maybe they don’t have backgrounds that would, that, or, or life experiences or life stories that would make you think inherently, oh, they should be satisfied, but, but here they are looking like some of the most content, happy people that you see in a while, so.

[00:22:21] LM: And that was one of the things they kept reiterating on this retreat was have fun. Like this is meant to be enjoyable. If it’s not enjoyable, do something different. And I really like that. And I will say that one of my takeaways, one of the impacts I felt that it had on me is meditation really fun for me.

[00:22:35] I’ve often been able to get myself to meditate, but it often feels like a chore. And this made meditation feel really, really enjoyable. I also just feel so much more spacious and I’ve realized the value of space in my life. I feel like over that retreat experience, my brain was this big tangled knot of string and that string just slowly like untangled and unwound itself and created this space for [00:23:00] creative thoughts and feelings and.

[00:23:02] a sense of joy with the world could come in and it’s made me realize how much I need that space, how much I crave that space in my life. So that’s something that I’m going to be intentionally working to create. So let’s talk about that actually action steps going forward, because we were talking about that a lot on the drive home based on things that we’ve learned on the retreat.

[00:23:20] So one that I’m doing is no rushing, no rushing. I realized how good it felt to not be and I think this created that spaciousness, that untangling in my brain. As much if not more than the active seated meditation that to me looks like a few things one. It looks like not trying to pack as many things into my calendar.

[00:23:44] I am so the person who’s like, Oh, I have 10 minutes before I have to leave. I’m going to put in a load of laundry and I’m going to make a snack and I’m going to just do all these different things because I have the time to do it. And then I’m rushing. And then I’m driving to the place trying to make up for lost time.

[00:23:58] I’m spiking my cortisol [00:24:00] levels and I’m just creating. this constant sense of stress of running behind in my body. So I’m going to try to create more spaciousness in my calendar, but also just little things like walking slower, moving slower. I realize that almost every single action that I do in my life, I do as if I am trying to hurry it along.

[00:24:20] Like making my tea, eating my lunch, sending work emails. I’m just like stomping and clomping and banging about. And I just look like I’m just trying to like get through to the next thing. And a huge part of this. type of meditation that they teach at Journey is about savoring and enjoying the thing and not just making your meditation practice on the cushion, but taking it into your life and saying, okay, right now I’m brushing my teeth.

[00:24:43] How can I feel brushing my teeth? How can I savor this experience right now? I’m eating my delicious dinner. Why am I just shoving it in my mouth and like trying to move on to the next thing? Like do the thing you’re doing and find a sense of enjoyment in that thing. And I think that will create that [00:25:00] spaciousness and lack of rushing.

[00:25:00] So that’s one of my action steps is no more rushing. Try to savor as many things as possible.

[00:25:06] ZM: I love that. I actually have a similar one, but specifically with media. I was thinking to myself that I find myself,

[00:25:16] Scrolling headlines on like news articles and stuff like that, like literally taking people’s well thought out ideas and trying to get the soundbite, trying to get the, the summary. So I’m, I’m instituting a,

[00:25:34] LM: almost in a hit way. Like it’s like, cause you’re just like, you don’t have the attention to like sit and read the whole thing.

[00:25:38] So you’re just like, Oh, got that hit. Need another hit. Need another hit. Which is how I, I don’t do it in news headlines, but I do it on social media. Certainly. I’m like, okay, got that hit. Like need the next hit, need the next hit, need the next hit.

[00:25:47] ZM: Um, one thing I’m doing is like, like a 15 minute minimum rule.

[00:25:50] So something has to take at least 15 minutes to consume or more. And then. I have to consume it for at least 15 minutes at a time. So that means [00:26:00] if I read a page of a book, I’m there for 15 minutes or more. I’m not going to just flip open a magazine and like read a quick article, flip on my news feed. And I don’t know how to deal with that with like, quote unquote, staying informed with the news.

[00:26:13] LM: You’ve said podcast though, like you’re like, I listen to a 30 minute podcast. Yeah,

[00:26:18] ZM: exactly right. And I think there are a lot of A lot

[00:26:21] LM: of great podcasts out there. A

[00:26:23] ZM: lot of great podcasts out there. Um, no, but there’s a lot of good ways to stay informed through long, long form.

[00:26:28] LM: And probably in a better way.

[00:26:29] I have an entire episode about all the ways in which we’re being manipulated online, especially on social media, but also on kind of clickbaity articles. Because people need to make money and that’s how these algorithms work and it’s not insidious, but it is true. But basically the type of information that we are being served on social media is designed to stir us up.

[00:26:48] It is designed to incite strong emotions because that is what keeps you on the app. That is what keeps you clicking, scrolling, all these things. And so by you saying, I want the information, but I don’t [00:27:00] need it with the side of being like fanned up. You know, I, I think that makes a lot of sense.

[00:27:05] ZM: What I think the, the thing for the time is about attention, right?

[00:27:09] About having my attention try to stay on things for longer periods of time and not be bopped around. Because so, so much of this, like, you know, the, the, the joy, the, the Jhanas, all the things, they, they are all wrapped. They’re all functions of. entering higher states of attention. Being able to kind of bring together the parts of your brain that are focused on going to lunch in 30 minutes or thinking about an awkward conversation you had with somebody and really trying to get all those things.

[00:27:42] Hey, let’s all bring our attention to X and let’s make sure X is, X is fun. That’s, that’s kind of how I want to approach my information consumption too, which is Also means, you know, I’m reading books more, I’m gonna read soundbites less, and, you know, [00:28:00] listen to a great hour and a half long podcast today, and I listened to the whole thing.

[00:28:04] And that was, and that was fantastic.

[00:28:05] LM: Yeah. I think we don’t talk enough about how. much when we’re doing low attention things because we don’t have an attention span, it is perpetuating our low attention span. And the way to break that is to start doing high attention things, which will feel really, really hard because we have a very low attention span.

[00:28:24] But that is how you train your attention span to be better. And it will feel significantly easier after you do it. And that’s kind of one of the great joys of retreat is your sort of force to get back your attention span. But I do think it’s something I definitely struggle with. It’s like, Oh, I don’t have an attention span right now.

[00:28:40] So I just want to scroll. Reading a book feels really hard. And the thing I have benefited immensely from telling myself is the more I read books, the easier it will be for me to read books.

[00:28:50] ZM: It’s funny. It’s like, it’s not like you don’t tell a lot of people to like suffer through something. But I think your short attention span.

[00:28:58] suffer, suffer through the thing that, that you [00:29:00] want to get distracted from until it doesn’t hurt anymore. Cause it, it, it’s going to be faster than you think.

[00:29:04] LM: Yeah, I completely agree. Another great tip that one of the facilitators shared was that anytime you’re engaging with any technology, just sit for 30 seconds before and ask yourself how you want to feel.

[00:29:15] What are you hoping to get out of it? So it could just be, I’m checking my email. I’m hoping to get information and then reply. and then sit for 30 seconds afterward and reflect on how you felt. So with the email example, did you just do that? Did you get distracted? Did it make you feel a certain way? Is there self criticism in the type of reply?

[00:29:33] Did you debate the amount of exclamation points you should put in something? But if it’s social media, if you sat down to take a break, Do you feel rested? Do you feel like you had a break? And if you did, great, amazing, but that was a huge unlock for me with social media, is I was using it to restore, relax, replenish.

[00:29:52] And I felt none of those things when I got up from scrolling. And so That’s one of the reasons that I did not [00:30:00] miss it nearly as much as I thought I would on the retreat. Okay, any other action steps?

[00:30:04] ZM: I mean, I have a meditation plan. I don’t know if that’s interesting to people, but I think the best thing to do is to do it when you first wake up.

[00:30:10] I think there’s so much value to starting your day under the influence of a more well martialed and well thought through attention span. I am have always had a hard time getting out of bed and going and meditating. So this might not work for everybody, but my meditation practice is actually going to happen in bed.

[00:30:28] I, when I wake up, I wake up really well. I very rarely like want to fall back asleep. So this might not work.

[00:30:35] LM: No, I do it on the couch cause I will instantly fall back asleep. So know what works for you. I think for sure

[00:30:41] ZM: what works for me. is actually, and I found this on the retreat because I was waking up every morning and being like, Oh man, I’m up an hour before we need to be up.

[00:30:48] I’m going to meditate. And I, this is actually the comfiest place to do it. Thank you very much. I also like meditating, laying down for various reasons as well. But I also discovered my [00:31:00] watch can vibrate multiple alarms. So basically, Now, one goes off at six.

[00:31:05] LM: It’s a Garmin. If your partner always wakes you up with their alarm, get them a Garmin.

[00:31:10] ZM: I’m sure almost any smartwatch does that. I just had not thought to like, check. So sorry, babe.

[00:31:15] LM: So I don’t have to wake up to Taylor Swift anymore.

[00:31:17] ZM: The Taylor Swift was, was my consolation prize to you, but, but, uh. It wasn’t

[00:31:21] LM: enough.

[00:31:22] ZM: Yeah, I see. I see now that, um, nothing would have been better than anything.

[00:31:28] So first alarm at six, second alarm at seven, meditate for an hour, go to sleep. Go about your day. Did it this morning, and it was a joy.

[00:31:36] LM: And along those same lines, I am turning my phone off at night. I used to do airplane mode. I’ve realized on this retreat that We literally turned our phones back on and we were both shook by how much we were drawn to like picking it up, checking things.

[00:31:50] We’re like, we’re not even interested in checking. Like, what are we checking right now? It’s a Sunday and it is crazy that just having it on and available makes you want to open it, fiddle [00:32:00] with it, check things, puts you into that state. So I realized airplane mode is way worse for me than just off. So my practice is going to be in addition to my meditation practice, which I’m going to do on the couch, not in bed for 30 minutes, not an hour, uh, different strokes, different folks, but I’m going to turn my phone off at night so that I’m not.

[00:32:19] tempted, I have this whole reboot period if I’m like, Oh, I really want to be on it that badly. I’m going to turn my phone off at night and I’m going to not turn it on until 9am, which is when I start work. And that way I can create the space that I need to create to have the morning routine that will set me up to feel the way that I want to feel all day.

[00:32:37] I realized that I’m just letting anybody reach me whenever they want. I’m operating on other people’s schedules. It’s like having all these people just kind of like tugging at your shirt all day long and you’re like, whoa, you wanted me, you sent me this text. It’s not even urgent. It’s not an urgent text, but because you’ve gotten it, I’m like, oh, I got to respond to this text.

[00:32:56] And I’m like, no, I want to direct my [00:33:00] attention. I don’t want to be told by other people where my attention should go. So that’s something that I’m experimenting with. I do encourage people to explore the difference between turning your phone off. You can get a landline if you’re worried about people reaching you in case of emergency.

[00:33:12] And just seeing what that feels like. I’m very excited to see my relationship with my phone going forward.

[00:33:24] ZM: And anybody who thinks that they’re not addicted to their attention grabbing device, or that it’s not that bad, I challenge you to set yourself a rule. Do an experiment. Say, I’m not gonna check my phone for an hour, but then leave it three feet from you. And then tell me how many times, and like, you know, don’t like, don’t, don’t try to like, hardball me here and like, be like, okay, I’m gonna, You know, then go intentionally meditate for an hour just to show Zach.

[00:33:51] Do a normal thing, like stay on your computer, do some work, whatever. The number of times you will, without thinking, against the intentions you’ve [00:34:00] set, reach for your phone.

[00:34:01] LM: It’s wild.

[00:34:01] ZM: I think it’s wild, yeah.

[00:34:02] LM: It’s wild.

[00:34:02] ZM: And, and, and for those of you who don’t find that to be the case. Good for you.

[00:34:07] LM: Yeah. Enjoy your wonderful life.

[00:34:09] I actually

[00:34:10] ZM: wish that. I wish that upon everybody.

[00:34:12] LM: Yeah. If you’re listening, that’s you. We salute you. We love you. Okay. Well, I love doing this meditation retreat with you. If you’re interested, we’ve said it a few times, but it is Journey. That is J H O U R N E Y. Their website is journey. io. I’ll put it in the show notes, but it’s basically J H O U R N E Y dot I O.

[00:34:32] They have a ton of different meditation retreats. They’re pretty reasonably priced from what I’ve experienced of meditation retreats.

[00:34:39] ZM: And pretty reasonable different types of commitment. There are a few different types that are more flexible depending on your schedule. They have the actual retreats.

[00:34:45] They have virtual ones that kind of go for a similar amount of time as the retreats. And then they have. work compatible virtual ones that sit in the time around a traditional nine to five. So you can, you do

[00:34:56] LM: it on two weekends, I think. And then they have you [00:35:00] meditate a certain amount during the week. I haven’t looked into it that much, but yeah, they really try to make it as accessible as possible.

[00:35:04] I also think they offer scholarships if that is of interest.

[00:35:07] ZM: And they’re a very data driven companies. They submit virtual recordings of what they were doing right before they, and people entered a John X state or, or, or, you know, have some other experience to describe. They then can share that with.

[00:35:19] people based, you know, with their consent, which I found really interesting. And, you know, these are people who were out on the virtual trade. So like they claim what they claim, a like a 70 ish percent hit rate on people who can effectively feel like they’ve entered these states.

[00:35:32] LM: And again, I cannot emphasize enough.

[00:35:34] I did not. And I learned so much about myself and I feel so different going forward,

[00:35:41] ZM: which is amazing.

[00:35:42] LM: So that was our eight day, mostly silent meditation retreat experience. It was life changing, honestly. And if you do any of these experiments, I would love to hear about them. If you go on a retreat, I’d love to hear about that.

[00:35:54] And I love you all. Thanks for listening. If you loved this episode, you will also love the episode with Dacher [00:36:00] Kaltner. It is called the 7 Minute Secret to Happiness that no one is talking about. It gets into awe and gratitude and all these other ways to rewire your brain, including a lot of the science behind what makes the type of meditation that we talked about in this episode work so well.

[00:36:15] It will link it in the show notes so you can go and listen next. Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.