Harvard Behavioral Scientist: Routines & Habits For Success In Life And Relationships

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[00:00:00] LU: Logan, welcome to the podcast. Yay, nice to be back. Life is so much easier when you really have these other people in your life, these other significant others that you can go to for things, who doesn’t want to be around someone who helps them become the person they want to be. What

[00:00:14] LM: would you say to somebody who feels like they’re always giving a lot to their friends and they’re not getting those things in return?

[00:00:20] LU: You’re never too old to learn how to date. It’s a skill and you can get better at it. I really feel like if you don’t have friends in your life that see you and believe in you and invest in your dreams as much as you invest in theirs, then it might be time to find some new friends.

[00:00:36] LM: Hello friends and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast where every week we are sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life.

[00:00:46] Hi, I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Today we’re going to be hearing from Logan Urie, who is one of my dear, dear friends and an absolutely brilliant woman who studied psychology at Harvard. She ran Google’s behavioral [00:01:00] science team, and she’s now the director of relationship science at the dating app, Hinge.

[00:01:05] She wrote the bestselling book, How to Not Die Alone, the surprising science that will help you find love. And now she’s the host of the new Netflix series, The Later Daters, which is so, so good. One of the things about Logan is that she has these tips and routines and systems for all parts of life and particularly for all kinds of relationships, which she thinks is one of the most important parts of living our best lives.

[00:01:30] She has them for romantic relationships, for friendships, for family, for your relationship with yourself. So I wanted to dive into her brain and get her to share her absolute best tips, things that she has not shared anywhere else, including how she helped me overcome a really hard time in my life. This was really interesting experience and I’m excited that I get to share it with you.

[00:01:52] She shares the best conversation starter tip near the end of the episode, just so many actionable, pragmatic things that we can use [00:02:00] to enhance our relationships and feel as good as possible every single day. So let’s dive in. Logan, welcome to the podcast. Yay. Nice to be back. I’m so excited to have you here because when I first had you on the podcast, I knew we were moving back to the Bay Area, although that time we failed at moving back and then no matted again, and then eventually did come back.

[00:02:20] But I was like, this person seems really cool. And I think I heard you in like an NPR interview or something. I was like, and she lives in the Bay Area. So I’ll have her on my podcast and I’ll make her my friend. And it worked. Your master plan worked. Here we are as good friends recording live. Yeah. It’s been really, really wonderful.

[00:02:37] And I don’t know if I can like recommend that as a technique to make friends, but it’s been, it’s been really special. And I’m so glad to have you here. So we’re going to get into a lot of, you know, Hacks and routines and tips and tricks to make our relationships in our lives stronger. Friendships and romantic relationships.

[00:02:51] Which you’re an expert in all these things. So let’s start off with a situation that I was in recently. I texted you one day and I was [00:03:00] going through a really hard time. with work and some personal stuff. And I just said, I feel like I’m doing life wrong right now. And you texted me back and said, No worries.

[00:03:11] Come over. We will do a board of directors meeting. I had never heard of this before. I don’t know if you coined this concept, but can you explain what it is?

[00:03:18] LU: Yes, well first of all it was my honor to do that. It’s really the idea that when you’re going through life, who are the people who are advising you?

[00:03:25] Who’s your counsel? And who’s making sure that you’re making good decisions and that you are not falling victim to blind spots that you don’t know you have? So a board of directors meeting is basically a meeting. bringing together people who you trust, who have your best interest at heart, who have a lot of context on your life and are really rooting for you.

[00:03:43] And you can bring up a problem or several problems and have those people weigh in to really guide you through a tough moment.

[00:03:49] LM: And you had a pretty specific setup for our meeting, at least. Can you share that and just share if that’s something you generally would recommend?

[00:03:57] LU: Yes. I think it was pretty simple.

[00:03:58] more on the fly than it [00:04:00] may have seemed. It seemed

[00:04:01] LM: so

[00:04:01] LU: structured. Why don’t you tell me a little bit

[00:04:03] LM: about how you experienced it? So you were like, you bring ingredients, we’ll cook together. And I was like, oh, is this like a fun psychological thing? No, no. That was really just like,

[00:04:13] LU: we love cooking, but we have a new baby.

[00:04:16] LM: And then we got there and I got to talk for five minutes. Oh, yeah. About. my life as I saw it, my struggles as I saw them. And then Zach weighed in for five minutes without me talking at all. And then I think you were taking like notes the whole time and then you and Scott asked questions.

[00:04:34] LU: Yeah, I was definitely in coach mode, which I think is one of my favorite modes to be in.

[00:04:38] So I was really listening really hard for what you were saying, the subtext of what you were saying and, you know, trying to be helpful along the way. That aspect of somebody speaks for a certain amount of time. And then I think there was a certain amount of time where we got to ask you questions and then you’re quiet while other people talk about you.

[00:04:54] That is something that I picked up on at a conference that I went to. And I think for people like you and [00:05:00] me, like I think we’re generally pretty similar. It’s hard for us to not butt in and be like, Whoa, wait, like you don’t understand the context here. Like, no, no, no, that’s not right. Let me do this. So actually just creating that moment of silence where.

[00:05:10] The person who’s getting coached can sit back while other people can talk about them. I think that that actually is sort of part of the magic formula because there’s really something special that happens when people who care about you and love you can talk to each other about you in front of you.

[00:05:25] Which is,

[00:05:26] LM: I always say it’s like my dream. I’m like, when I leave the room, I’m like, Oh, I hope everybody’s talking about me while I’m not there. But it’s also nerve wracking. Yeah. Are there any guardrails that you put in place to make sure there aren’t hurt feelings?

[00:05:37] LU: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we should take one step back and really talk about what kind of people can have a board of directors meeting.

[00:05:42] So I think that this is really for somebody who has a lot of friends who are invested in them and friends who they would really go to for advice. And so I feel like it starts when we’re a lot younger and it really starts with the curating and cultivating these amazing friendships. If I could give [00:06:00] advice to young people in high school or graduating from college, one of the number one pieces of advice I’d give them is really think about the friends that you have.

[00:06:08] Think about the friends that you want to keep, the friends you want to build, the friends you want to shed, and think about how these people will guide you for many years of your life. I look back on the last 15 years of my life and I feel like my life has been so impacted by my friends. Advice on who to date, who to marry, what job to take, when to leave a job, when to take a risk, when to be more conservative.

[00:06:31] And so if you think that you are really impacted by the people around you, then from the beginning being really conscientious about who those people are. So I think that’s the first step is. Even if you’re not young, you can start now is how can you cultivate a group of people around you who are really the type of people you’d want to get advice from.

[00:06:50] The second piece of advice is if you really want to have a board of directors and great friends, you also need to be a great friend. I feel like my life is [00:07:00] really very much focused on my friendships and my relationships. And I do ask a lot, but I also give a lot. So for example, I’m just going to think about this week.

[00:07:09] So like Tuesday night, I had a dinner with some of my girlfriends, and this is a new thing that we’re doing called the blind spots dinner, where we go to dinner and we’re sort of pointing out each other’s blind spots and giving advice. So we ended up spending the whole dinner, uh, Talking about my friend who’s looking for a new job and we were pointing out blind spots around.

[00:07:25] You really want to work in person. I don’t think that this job that’s all remote is really going to make you happier than your last job. Then Thursday morning I got a call from a friend who is quitting her job and really needed advice on how to tell her boss and what she should do. Thursday night I talked to a friend about should he go back to school to become a therapist?

[00:07:44] Should he be prioritizing dating? for each of those, I have many examples of what I ask for from my friends. And so this is just something that I feel like is basically the fabric of my life is being a high exchange friend. I have friends who aren’t really wired that [00:08:00] way. I would say my husband isn’t even wired that way.

[00:08:02] So in the beginning, I think they’re kind of like, Whoa, she’s asking me for a lot, but then they kind of get used to it. And they asked me for a lot. And then it’s just like, wow, life is so much easier when you’re When you really have these other people in your life, these other significant others that you can go to for things.

[00:08:15] Okay, I have so many questions on that.

[00:08:18] LM: One, what if we are looking around the people around us and we want these friends that we can go to for advice, that we can cultivate these really deep, important relationships with and we don’t see the raw material there?

[00:08:29] LU: What I would say here is advice that I would give people.

[00:08:31] in dating if they feel like they’re not meeting the kind of people they want to meet online. And so one of those things is just to be in the spaces where the kind of person you’re trying to meet is spending time. So think about different events that you could go to. What’s an event that’s really gonna make you happy, bring out a great side of you, something that you’d be interested in going to even if you didn’t meet anyone great.

[00:08:51] And then what is the type of event where people actually interact? Because of course you might love to go to the opening night of a new movie, but you’re [00:09:00] probably not going to meet anyone there. So really going to these spaces where it’ll bring out the best side of you and you’re excited to meet people.

[00:09:06] Another thing you can do is about 10 years ago, my friend who I was really close with was starting to date this guy and she wanted us to become better friends. So we decided, why don’t we throw this dinner series together? And we called it, Intrigued and the idea was that we would each invite people who we were intrigued by and we like this title because it was Very flattering to people, you know, when you meet somebody like at a conference or something It’s sort of hard to be like, hey, do you want to hang out one on one?

[00:09:34] But then you also don’t want to never see them again And so this intrigue dinner was a way to say I met you and I’d like to get to know you better But I’m going to do it in this low pressure situation where you’re also likely to meet other cool people since it’s called intrigued. And I actually got several dates out of that.

[00:09:50] I made some interesting friends. I had interesting conversations. I feel like a bunch of those people have gone on to do interesting things and I’m really glad that I have these acquaintance [00:10:00] relationships with them. And so I feel like things like that where if you are not finding the people around you you, you’re That are the types of people you want to have in your life, then how can you host more or go out to new places to really expand beyond that?

[00:10:13] And I know that when people are in their thirties and they feel like all their friends are having kids, it can be a really hard moment in friendship because you’re just not somebody’s priority anymore for people like that. It’s a moment to say, I’m really going to. go outside my comfort zone. I’m going to talk to a girl at the end of Pilates.

[00:10:30] I’m going to go to trivia night and see if the two of us can join another team. And I feel like people talk so much about the importance of finding a romantic partner. And I am one of those voices saying that. But at the end of the day, one of the things in my life that I’m most proud of is what a good friend I am and what great friendships I have.

[00:10:50] And so I really want people to take a step back and think about their friend group and what they love about it and what they can continue to invest in maybe [00:11:00] through things like friendship rituals or what’s missing and how can they actually 2025 goals. Really I’m going to make two good friends this year.

[00:11:10] LM: Do you have any other Friendship rituals that you could share. I love the idea of this blind spots dinner. I love the board of directors meetings Is there anything else in that realm?

[00:11:19] LU: Yeah, so One of my favorite places in the world is or hot springs And one of the reasons I really like it is because there’s absolutely no Wi Fi and no cell service So when you go you’re really opting into a space where people are going to connect and it’s really focused on who?

[00:11:36] cooking, and conversation. At least twice this year, my group of four of us have gone there, and it’s been this really amazing time where even though we see each other a lot, it’s seeing each other without kids, without husbands, without Wi Fi, and we have these amazing conversations. And so I think creating spaces where a particular group gets together is really special.

[00:11:56] And another thing about it is that it’s pretty low friction [00:12:00] because it’s just like, we know what it’s like to be there. We know that there won’t be Wi Fi. We know what the kitchen setup is like. And so there’s not actually that much planning that goes into it. It’s really just aligning on what dates we’re all free, you know, getting childcare and going.

[00:12:12] So one is friendship rituals around repeating things like that. I also have multiple friends who I do an annual trip with, and this is something that’s really special because. Yeah. I just feel like those weekends are a chance to make new memories. Something that happens a lot of times with old friends is that you meet up for dinner, you talk about what’s been happening in both of your lives over the last six months, and then it’s over, but you’re not creating any new novel memories.

[00:12:38] And so when I learned about that, I really tried to change the way that I see some of my old friends. So when my best friend in the world came to visit when my baby was born, we could have just done a bunch of things, hang out at home, but I really wanted to take her to the beach and take her to see these new things.

[00:12:56] And I feel like it was the first time in a long time that we had made a new [00:13:00] memory. And now we’ve actually done that more times this year. So I think really the idea of novelty creates memories. I’m wearing my novelty rule sweatshirt. Oh, that’s perfect. No, no, no. That is literally it. Yes. Right. Do you want

[00:13:12] LM: to say the rule?

[00:13:13] It’s just that if we do novel experiences, our brain literally perceives time as going slower. So it’s this magical way that we can slow down time and remember things better. And it perceives time as going slower because we are writing new memories in our brain and it’s having to catalog those. So that’s the idea.

[00:13:28] Novelty Row. It’s wonderful.

[00:13:29] LU: Yes. And I think anyone who’s watching or listening can really probably think back, oh yeah, there’s friends where we see each other on Thanksgiving and we catch up, and then there’s friends that we really make new memories when we’re together, and those friendships just probably feel so much more present and so much richer.

[00:13:44] And so how can you actually do something novel when you see an old friend to play into the novelty rule. Another thing that I wanted to talk about, which combines both the friendship piece and a habit piece, is how I used friendship and accountability to really get my book [00:14:00] done. So are you familiar with Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies?

[00:14:04] I’m loosely, but explain them briefly. Okay, so they’re basically about how you uphold expectations to yourself and to other people. Some people are upholders, which means it’s easy for them to not let themselves down, and it’s easy for them to not let other people down. But many people are like me, which is an obliger.

[00:14:23] So if I say that I’m going to go to the gym, I may not, I’ll let myself down. But if I told you that I was going to meet you at the gym, there’s almost nothing in the world that would make me not show up. And so when you understand that you’re an obliger, you can use this fact that you don’t let other people down to really help you achieve your goals.

[00:14:42] So I knew this about myself and I had gotten my book deal and I did not want to be a person who a month before the, book was due, or honestly a week before the book was due, was like, I haven’t written anything. So we were like, how can I spread out the book over time and create a lot of deadlines over the next nine months?[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] So we came up with this idea where every three weeks I would have a dinner. And for the dinner, I had to send a group of people two chapters of my book. And so I’d basically find 10 people who were friends or acquaintances or people I worked with or friends of friends. Like it was a pretty broad group.

[00:15:18] And I would say, will you come to this dinner? Then I would find someone and ask them to host it and I’d give them money for the food. And then I knew that a day or two before the dinner, I had to email out those book chapters. And so what that meant was I was not going to let those people down. I was not going to say dinner’s canceled.

[00:15:35] I was not going to say it’s moved to a week later. I needed to write it. And so by incorporating that accountability from these every three weeks dinners, I really was able to write pretty quickly. And I got incredible feedback that. helped title my book, helped shape my book, helped figure out what was resonating, what wasn’t, what was inclusive, what was exclusive.

[00:15:55] I think it’s one of the reasons why my book is so strong, is because of all that feedback. [00:16:00] And so I feel like that process, it really exemplifies how I move through the world, which is that I move through the world changing. getting a lot of feedback, creating experiences for other people. I would do any favor for any of those people who asked me to do something for them in return.

[00:16:14] And I think in the end, the final product was so much stronger because I’d incorporated other people.

[00:16:20] LM: This brings me back to the second question that I wanted to ask, which is, you said you’re this high exchange friend and you ask a lot of your friends and you give a lot. What would you say to somebody who feels like they’re always giving a lot to their friends and they’re not getting those things in return?

[00:16:34] LU: Yeah, that’s a great point. I would say, first of all, are you asking for help? I think this is a common thing that I talk about with people in a lot of different aspects of life. So a common thing that people complain about on dating is that they ask a lot of questions and the person they’re on a date with asks no questions.

[00:16:53] And so I like to call those people ZQ, zero questions. And when I send my newsletter subscriber stuff about this, it takes off. [00:17:00] People really hate ZQ daters. So when I’ve talked to ZQ daters and I say, why does this happen? And they’re like, Oh, well, I don’t need to ask a question. If they ask me a question and then I answer, they should just jump in with their answer too and say they don’t realize necessarily that they have to invite someone to also answer.

[00:17:15] And so for someone like this, I would say maybe you really see your role as a giver. Maybe you worry that if you asked for something that people wouldn’t give it to you and that you would be disappointed. Maybe you feel like. You don’t want to have a story in your head that you need other people because you prize your independence so much.

[00:17:32] So I would really try to talk to them about that. Then they might say, no, Logan, I really do ask and people don’t give to me. And then I would say, well, it sounds like you could use some additional friends or some new friends or people who are more supportive in that way. Of course, it’s scary to restart at any age.

[00:17:49] I feel like I’m imagining, you know, some mom who’s breastfeeding, who’s just like, yeah. When the hell do I have time to make new friends? Like I have so much going on. And like, trust me, I was [00:18:00] that mom this year listening to podcasts and feeling overwhelmed, but I just feel like this is just so important.

[00:18:06] This is just such a critical part of a healthy life. I mean, I know that on the show, you talk about the Harvard research study, about 80 years of studying people. What do we find? Social fitness is just such a critical part of a healthy life. And it really is a predictor of. happiness and success and health.

[00:18:25] And so the same way that if somebody lost their job and they needed to make money, they would hustle and find another job as painful as it was. I really feel like if you don’t have friends in your life that see you and believe in you and invest in your dreams as much as you invest in theirs, then it might be time to find some new friends.

[00:18:46] LM: Can you share one daily habit that we can do to make our relationships stronger? And this can be our friendships or our romantic relationships.

[00:18:55] LU: One thing that I do is I really check in with people about what’s going on in their [00:19:00] lives and I’m really there for the big things that they’re working on. An underrated or a new feature that people might not know about is on text you can send later.

[00:19:10] So there’s a feature, I think it’s like If you have, I don’t know, iOS 18 or something, you can basically say the time that you want a text to send. So, that’s something that has helped make me an even better friend recently, is like, if I have a friend with an interview for a new job and it’s at 8 a. m.

[00:19:26] Eastern time, well, I’m not up at 5 a. m. Pacific time, but I can certainly send a text. on that specific day in advance that says, good luck. You’re going to kill it. I love you. All of those things. So I think that if you are somebody who doesn’t have a good memory, put things on your calendar, put people’s birthdays on your calendar.

[00:19:42] Know when somebody’s going on a big trip, know somebody’s wedding anniversary. It’s like, these are milestone moments that you can use to check in with people. But I also just want to underline, One other thing that I said, which is just this idea of really helping your friends become who they want to be and really [00:20:00] supporting their dreams.

[00:20:01] So John Gottman, who I know you’ve had on this podcast with his wife, Julie, you know, they’re really these expert relationship scientists and have done so much in this field. And John has a story he likes to tell about when he was, I think, first being published and the guy who was considering publishing his book was like, Oh, you’re this relationship expert.

[00:20:21] You know, what should I do in my relationship? What should I do with my wife? And he’s like, well, do you know what her dreams are? And he was like, not really. And he was like, we’ll go home and ask her what her dreams are and help support her in those. And so I feel like that’s great advice in relationships, in romantic relationships.

[00:20:37] And it’s also really good advice in friendships because who doesn’t want to be around someone who helps them become the person they want to be.

[00:20:44] LM: Ooh, I love that so much. I also love the checking in. I hear from single listeners of this podcast all the time that when they have these big moments in their life, they get a raise, they get a promotion, they get a pet, they have a birthday.

[00:20:58] They do. [00:21:00] don’t feel like they have these go to people celebrating them often because that’s often a partner’s role. And they’re like, don’t forget about us. Like we need people to celebrate us too. And I love the idea of being able to be that for single people and also partnered people, but especially those people who might not have somebody else.

[00:21:17] LU: Yeah, I think that’s huge. People in relationships often can forget how lonely the single experience is and how it’s not just who’s not there for you in the hard times. It’s also that you don’t have someone there celebrating you. And so I would say for all of your audience who are in a happy relationship, don’t forget about your single friends and really reach out to them.

[00:21:38] And even when you have kids, which I think is a really hard moment where people feel strapped for time, that’s an especially good time to become a friend for someone else.

[00:21:47] LM: Do you have any weekly, monthly, or annual routines that you use to make your relationship stronger?

[00:21:53] LU: I am a big proponent of rituals.

[00:21:56] I think that they’re just so important because the ritual kind of takes on an [00:22:00] importance of its own. And if there’s just a time on the calendar, however often it is, then neither person has to really, you carry that relationship forward. It’s like the time is already there and then you both just need to show up.

[00:22:13] So you’re not doing a lot of texting around that. So I would say, you know, being a new mom, having a lot of jobs, having a husband who’s really busy. I feel like ritual is more important now than ever because if we didn’t have rituals, then every moment would just be filled with laundry and logistics and you know, Taking out the garbage.

[00:22:33] A new ritual that we have is on Saturday mornings, we take our daughter to story time at the library and That’s really fun. We enjoy it. We sing I feel like it’s just like a chance to be present pretty early and then afterwards we’ve been going to the farmer’s market and Then at the farmer’s market We usually buy food that we cook later that day Aka my husband cooks later that day and then we try to have a friend over for dinner that night And [00:23:00] that day has just become something that I really look forward to because it shapes the day.

[00:23:05] It’s a way to carve out the time and really spend quality time together. And something that I really like about that dinner is that A lot of people talk about date nights. Oh, you need to go on date nights. But from personal experience and from friends experience, I often feel like on those date nights, you just end up talking about logistics.

[00:23:22] But when you have a couple over, it’s actually a really amazing time to connect with your partner. Because when my husband talks about things he’s working on or ideas he’s had, I feel so attracted to him. I’m seeing him in this new light. I’m seeing him in the light of other people who admire him or who love him and care for him.

[00:23:40] And then when I talk, I feel like, wow, I’m actually sharing stuff that I haven’t even gotten around to telling him this week because we’re talking about, you know, the family, ink, and all of that. And it’s really a moment for me to reclaim my identity as a woman. a person who’s not just a mom. Another reason it works well [00:24:00] is that we can have our daughter sleeping upstairs while we have the friends over.

[00:24:02] So I really, really like couple dinners because I think that it’s a chance to shine and to watch your partner shine. Do you feel

[00:24:11] LM: that way? Oh yeah, I love them. I think that double dates. or even like a dinner party, like six people. It’s just such a fun dynamic.

[00:24:19] LU: Yeah. And I feel like we’ve had amazing trips with you and your husband.

[00:24:22] We’ve had amazing dinners with you and your husband. And I really like those relationships because it’s also a chance for like the different pairings to kind of chat with each other. Like I’m really appreciative of my relationship with Zach and like, I’m glad that you and my husband can talk about meditation now.

[00:24:37] And so I think that that’s another way to invest in friendships is to also make couple friends and then kind of strengthen the bonds. Vertically, diagonally, horizontally, all the ways.

[00:24:47] LM: I a hundred percent agree. You’re one of the most intentional people that I know and you’ve found a lot of success with that intention.

[00:24:55] Are there any other life hacks, tips, habits, routines that [00:25:00] you feel like have contributed to your success?

[00:25:02] LU: This is something that I think you and I really have in common and I think that There’s two sides to this coin. Obviously, interrupt me if you don’t agree, but I feel like both of us have a pretty clear vision for how we want things to be, whether it’s the cover of our book, which for both of us was a very challenging experience, or whether it’s something in our house or our website or something on social media.

[00:25:24] And so I think that we both are blessed to have very clear visions that we try to bring into the world. But then I would also say sometimes it is a burden because I spend a decent amount of my time being frustrated that it can’t be exactly the way I want it to be, or frustrated with a collaborator or a contractor, whoever it is, like, No, you don’t get it.

[00:25:44] I want it this way, but I don’t know how to explain it because I’m actually a designer, but I’m trying to tell you that I’m a better designer than you. So it’s something that I’m really actively working on is how to be a person that has a vision, goes to achieve it, is really proud [00:26:00] when they achieve it, but is not miserable along the way.

[00:26:03] Just really understanding which things are glass balls that you can’t drop and which are plastic balls that can drop and just. Getting better at prioritization and knowing what matters and what doesn’t. I think that that’s a thing that I’m pretty actively working on because I don’t want to be a person who has the perfect font choice and color on their website but made an enemy on the way to doing that.

[00:26:26] Just really understanding. which things perfection or close to perfection matter for, and those are very few, and which things it doesn’t matter as much for. Do you

[00:26:37] LM: think

[00:26:37] LU: being a

[00:26:37] LM: mom has helped make that easier?

[00:26:40] LU: Yeah, I think that in general, being a mom has made me a lot happier. I think that I know, you’re like a pusher.

[00:26:47] I really love being a mom. I think it’s a few things. I think it’s that there’s more mindful moments in my day because I’m with my daughter. So if I’m bathing her for 30 minutes, like I’m not on my phone. [00:27:00] That would be dangerous. I’m just with her having a splash party in the tub with her. But if you told me, do something like that when you don’t have a kid, I just don’t think I would have been mindful for 30 minutes.

[00:27:13] And so there’s just something about being mindful. being present with her, knowing how quickly this time is going, knowing how curious she is, knowing that she’s constantly searching for my eye contact and I want my eyes to be there to meet her. I don’t want them to be on my phone, checking slack. I don’t think that that’s the most important way to spend my time.

[00:27:31] And so being busier, being with her, having these mindful moments has just made me really happy. And then it’s also helped me to, not sweat the small stuff as much. And so there are certain things around my work or social media where I just care a little less about the punctuation in my captions because I’m like, I don’t have the time to give to that and I don’t think it matters.

[00:27:53] And I have something in my life that really does matter.

[00:27:55] LM: Well, and it’s so helpful because once you start not caring a little bit, you [00:28:00] get proof of how little it matters. So even if you don’t have any kids, and you’re just like, maybe I’ll put something out that I think of as an 80 percent thing. Maybe I’ll send a 70 percent email, maybe I’ll make a 60 percent dinner, and then you’re like, oh wait, nobody cares, and this has no real life implications.

[00:28:16] That starts to train your brain that, That’s okay, and you can continue to do that. People don’t notice if you ordered a pizza for a dinner party. They are just happy to be there and happy to be there with you as your least stressed self that you can show up as at that time.

[00:28:30] LU: I do agree with that. And I can think of a few moments this year where I’m in the moment and I’m like, this could have been better.

[00:28:37] I know what I could have done to make this better, but it’s fine. It’s good enough. And so I think that it is exactly what you said. It’s testing that. For someone like me, let’s say a, I’m a recovering perfectionist, not even recovered perfectionist. I think to be in that moment and say, I could have done this.

[00:28:53] I could have prepped these people this way. I could have ordered this. I could have spent 30 more minutes thinking of questions for this event and then [00:29:00] just being like I didn’t and it still got the point across. People still felt the way I wanted them to feel in this moment and then saying like it was okay that I prioritized something else.

[00:29:09] LM: Speaking of success, you have a Netflix show, The Later Daters. It’s so good. I got to watch a few episodes and it’s just like you love The Golden Bachelor, The Golden Bachelorette. If you just love these like really heartfelt poignant stories, you’re going to love this show. How does a show like that come about?

[00:29:26] Like, did Michelle Obama call you and was like, Hey, Logan, you want to show on Netflix or how does that happen?

[00:29:30] LU: Yeah. So Michelle Obama is the executive producer, but she did not call me on the phone. After my book came out, I started, having meetings with different producers from unscripted production companies about potential shows.

[00:29:42] But honestly, most of those calls did not resonate with me. I feel like the competition aspect isn’t totally me, or I just wasn’t sure how this was differentiated from a lot of other dating shows that are out there. So then when I got a call from this one producer and he told me this idea, which [00:30:00] was basically baby boomers dating with the help of their millennial and Gen Z kids.

[00:30:06] I was just like, that’s such a good idea. That’s not out there. And this was actually pre golden bachelor. So really nobody was doing like a 55 plus dating show. When my parents got divorced, my dad found a new partner pretty quickly and has been with her for 15 years. And my mom is single. And so I just felt like I was really moved by this story.

[00:30:24] I wanted to find someone for people like my mom. And it just felt. like such a unique opportunity to help a population that isn’t usually on TV, isn’t usually made to feel sexy and beautiful and desirable, which these people are. And then I also like the idea of this show because I truly get to coach and teach people how to be better daters.

[00:30:44] So I coach the people on the show, but then also I hope people watching at home also get those lessons. And so because it’s not a competition show, it’s just about you. Starting in one place and getting to another place through growth. I really was excited about this show

[00:30:59] LM: One of the things that [00:31:00] I love that you do on the show is you offer these very Pragmatic actionable tips for these people before they go on dates and then you get to see them put them into practice Can you share one or two of your favorite tips?

[00:31:09] LU: Sure. Yeah, so this is something that I think is a huge part of my coaching is that I’m very, very focused on being pragmatic, on being actionable. So when I talk to someone on the phone and I’m saying, Hey, I want you to go on this many dates per month, I’m really telling them you need to block out that time on your calendar and you need to do everything you can to get a date.

[00:31:29] for that evening. And so on the show, I do the same thing. So there’s a woman on the show who I meet and she is talking all over me. She’s really talking a lot and I feel like she’s not really listening to what I’m saying. She’s more just speaking and getting things off her chest. So then after one of her dates, when we talk about it, I hear, Oh, she basically did the same thing to this guy.

[00:31:50] And so the advice that I give her is to be interested, not interesting. And you really see that she processes this. And so on the next date, she’s making such an [00:32:00] effort to really understand who is this person? What motivates them? What are they about? And it’s really great just to see how redirecting her energy from just trying to seem interesting or just being, Somebody who talks a lot.

[00:32:14] Truly being interested. It really improves her as a dater with just that tip. I also love the podcast tip because you’ve used it on me. You gave it

[00:32:22] LM: to Suzanne on the show, who is phenomenal. I have a girl crush on her completely. But I was literally like, I feel like the last time Logan got in, My car.

[00:32:30] She’s like, I was just listening to a really cool podcast. The thing is, like, in that moment,

[00:32:35] LU: I’m not doing that on purpose. I just like literally am basically at any moment I’m listening to a podcast. So if I see someone, it probably the first thing I am going to say is I was just listening to a podcast because that would be the truth.

[00:32:45] But yeah, so this is a tip that I give Suzanne where she is a widow. She hasn’t been on many dates since her husband passed away and she’s nervous about her future. And so I talk about the fact that many first dates feel stiff in the beginning because we [00:33:00] show up and we do the small talk. Oh, where do you live?

[00:33:03] How long have you lived there? How did you get here tonight? And then it’s really boring. So I said, instead, can you start the way that you would start a conversation with the first date? Friend, which is what’s going on in your life? Start in me Re, which is Latin for in the middle of things. So I say, you know, what books have you been reading or podcasts?

[00:33:20] And she talks about Matthew McConaughey. And so on the show, I tell her, why don’t you talk about that at the beginning of your date. And then literally in the next scene you see her walking into the date and say. So, Matthew McConaughey. And like, I think it works well. I think it was

[00:33:34] LM: such a cute scene, though, because he was trying to talk about something else.

[00:33:36] And she’s like, No, I know.

[00:33:39] LU: It really, it really makes me laugh because I’m like, she was such a good student. Yeah, I think she was like, my homework assignment from Logan is Matthew McConaughey. I will get it in. And I love it because I feel like One of the biggest aspects of the show is this idea that we’re born knowing how to love, but we’re not born knowing how to date.

[00:33:57] And you’re never too old [00:34:00] to learn how to date. It’s a skill and you can get better at it. And it’s in those moments where you’re really seeing these people in their 60s and 70s, learning how to date better and then seeing good results from it.

[00:34:10] LM: Can you share a piece of advice for anybody who’s listening, who is a later dater, or maybe somebody who, like you, has a single mom.

[00:34:17] I have a single mom. I have a single dad. I want them to find love. So how can we help them?

[00:34:22] LU: A big thing that you can do if you have a parent who you hope to find love is to really tell them how much you want that for them and then help make that happen. So on the show, the woman, Suzanne, who’s a widow, who we talked about, it’s really beautiful to see her daughter say, We know you’re not replacing dad.

[00:34:41] We want you to find love. We want you to have somebody to go through life with. And so I think that maybe kids feel like, Oh, of course my mom knows that. But I think actually saying it to her, being explicit with her. So, you know, Thanksgiving weekend, Christmas weekend, say that to them, just let them know.

[00:34:56] I would love for you to find love and I’m really here for you. And then I [00:35:00] think that there are just tactical things that you can do. Help them set up a hinge profile, take some cute pictures of them, tell them what the eggplant emoji means. I think just really being a person there who says like, let me help you navigate.

[00:35:15] this part of life that you may never have. Because if that person is single now, and the last time they dated was pre apps, things are really different. I think there’s just so much texting and subtext and all of that. And so really just emotionally telling them that you want this for them, but also doing tactical, logistical things that help make it easier for them.

[00:35:36] LM: And if somebody who is listening is single, older and they’ve, I don’t know, maybe like they don’t have that hope or it feels really hard or it feels just like this really insurmountable barrier. What would you say to them?

[00:35:47] LU: I would say that take a step back and think really about what you want at this stage of life.

[00:35:53] So maybe you just want a friend with benefits. Maybe you want somebody to travel [00:36:00] and have adventures with. Maybe you never want to live with somebody again, but you’d love to have a lifelong companion. And so I think understanding that there’s a lot more options for relationship structures than there used to be, and that you can really think about what would fulfill you in this moment in life.

[00:36:17] And if it is a romantic relationship, then go out there and pursue it. But understand it doesn’t have to be the traditional marriage sharing a house. There’s a big trend with older daters among this idea of LAT, living apart together, where they don’t merge their finances and they don’t merge their households, but they still are in this committed relationship.

[00:36:35] the second thing I would do is what I do with my clients in our first session, which is do a relationship audit. So take a look back at your past relationships. Even if it’s, you know, when you were a lot younger and, you know, before you were first married or whatever it is, and what kind of people were you drawn to?

[00:36:50] How did you tend to meet them? What side of you did they bring out? Take a look at your marriage, if you, Um, [00:37:00] and then from there, start to think about, well, what kind of person do I want to be with next? And so I think before you even set up that online dating profile or ask for introductions, just really getting clear with yourself about who you are, what you want, and what you hope the dynamic will be in your next relationship.

[00:37:19] LM: I love that. Can you leave us with just one homework assignment? Something that anybody listening can do as soon as they turn off the podcast to enhance a relationship in their life?

[00:37:29] LU: Yes. In today’s conversation, we talked a lot about how to be a better friend and how to have friends who really serve as your board of advisors.

[00:37:36] I would say if you’re somebody who wants to invest in more friendships like that, then how can you be that kind of friend? So think of a person who you’d like to develop a closer relationship with and make a plan with them, make a plan to talk on the phone, make a plan to meet up. And in that conversation, I want you to ask them, what’s something that you’re struggling with right now, or what’s something that you’re working on?

[00:37:57] And then think about ways that you can support them. [00:38:00] It might just be, okay. dropping off dinner one night because they’re up late studying for a big test. It might be texting them the day that they have a job interview. It might be making an introduction to another friend who’s dealing with the same thing.

[00:38:12] And so really think about how can I be a resource to my friends and how can I develop these more interdependent relationships? Because as a person who’s living that life, I would tell you, it’s really the best part of my life. I love that.

[00:38:25] LM: I know that we talked a little bit about your amazing show, but I would love to hear more about it in your own words and also anything else that you’re working on that you want to shout out.

[00:38:33] Thank you. Yeah. So

[00:38:34] LU: the show follows six daters who are 55 plus as they get a second or third chance at love. And so I’m the onscreen coach and I’m guiding them throughout the way. And what I really love about the show is that you meet them in the context of their families. So you meet their kids, you meet their ex wife, you meet their granddaughter, you meet They really have these people who are supporting them through the experience, and I love it because when you’re dating someone, you’re not dating them in a fantasy suite.

[00:38:58] You’re dating them in the [00:39:00] context of their real lives, and I think this show really shows that. So that’s something that I’m really proud of.

[00:39:05] LM: It also ties in with the board of directors thing that we have been talking about, too. It’s like, these people matter in your lives, and you’re getting to see these kids, these grandkids weigh in on things, and, and it’s a really special experience to watch.

[00:39:17] Yeah,

[00:39:17] LU: I love that. And I think it just makes the show feel as authentic as possible. Other ways that people can connect with me are I have a weekly newsletter called Logan’s Love Letter that comes out every Thursday, and then people can check out my book, which is called How to Not Die Alone. Love

[00:39:33] LM: it.

[00:39:34] Thank you so much, Logan. Thanks for having me. If you loved this episode, you will love the episode where I first met Logan and I got her to spill all of her best dating and relationship advice. It’s called How to Be More Attractive, when it apps, flirt better, and more. Relationship scientist Logan Ury answers your Qs.

[00:39:52] People tell me constantly that it’s one of their favorite episodes and it’s so, so interesting regardless of if you’re dating or happily coupled up. I [00:40:00] will link it in the show notes so you can go and listen next. Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.

[00:40:10] It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.