Science-Backed Hacks to MAJORLY Reduce Stress When The World Gets Overwhelming

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] LM: All right, Dr. Jenny, welcome to the podcast. How do we know when our stress is a sign that we should be making a greater change in our life and when we should just be treating the symptom of stress? What does my mind do when I’m stressed?

[00:00:11] JT: How does that affect my body? What are my typical stress fueled behaviors?

[00:00:16] And like a huge mantra

[00:00:17] LM: is avoid avoiding. Avoid avoiding. Oh, I like that. How can we stop letting stress drive us to eating things that aren’t going to make us feel good in the long run? I

[00:00:25] JT: think we really underestimate the power of Being present in the moment and doing things that help us see ourselves as capable.

[00:00:32] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we are sharing real science, real stories and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Today I’m joined by Dr. Jenny Tates. Dr. Tates is an assistant clinical professor in psychiatry at UCLA, and her writing has appeared in numerous publications, including the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.

[00:00:56] She’s published multiple books, including most recently Stress [00:01:00] Resets, How to Soothe Your Body and Mind in Minutes. This episode is all about quick, easy to do in the moment hacks for stress. Think of it like a toolkit filled with ideas that you can apply throughout your day whenever you get stressed, which, if you are like me, is probably more often than you would like.

[00:01:16] We also get into the psychology behind stress, like why I do things that I know don’t help my stress or make it worse, and how I can stop, which hopefully you cannot relate to, but if you can, this episode will help. All right, Dr. Jenny, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Liz. I’m so thrilled to talk to you.

[00:01:32] I’m so excited to have you here. I was just telling you this is one that I’m very personally invested in as somebody who feels at the whims of stress in my own life quite frequently. So I would love to just start off by, can you help people who might be listening and they’re like, oh, I feel stressed, but doesn’t everybody feel stressed actually identify the problem?

[00:01:51] Where’s the showing up in our lives that we might not be aware of? What problems Is our stress causing?

[00:01:58] JT: There are so many, and this is so [00:02:00] variable, like some people, it’s their stomach. Some people it’s their sleep. Some people it’s their snappiness. They’re more reactive. And so this has a lot of variability person to person.

[00:02:09] And one of the most interesting things I find is that there’s actually a perceived stress scale. So much of stress is about perception. And so stress, just to define it for people out there is this mismatch between what we’re facing and our bandwidth. Some people feel like they have a huge bandwidth and some people feel like.

[00:02:26] At certain moments, they don’t, but the problem with stress is when we’re stressed, we most need sleep and then it steals sleep from us. When we’re stressed, we most need to get stuff done, but we’re most likely to procrastinate. And so I’m super interested in helping people see the unfortunate ways we make stress 10 times bigger when we don’t need to in ways that only stress us out and undermine our sense of ability to cope.

[00:02:47] Do different people have different levels of bandwidth? Even the same person at different times have different bandwidth. If you are doing lots of great things outside of work with friends, and you feel really happy with certain hobbies you’re pursuing, you [00:03:00] might feel like you can cope with more. Stress at work because you have money in your emotional bank account.

[00:03:05] And other times, like I’ve certainly experienced this, when sleep isn’t great. Maybe you had a child or maybe you’re going through a lot with a family member who’s struggling with health. Different people have different bandwidths at different times and there’s a lot of variability.

[00:03:18] LM: How do we know when our stress is a sign that we should be making a greater change in our life and when we should just be treating the symptom of stress?

[00:03:26] JT: That’s a great question and I think those things go hand in hand. Let’s just start with a stress cycle because I think that that’s really helpful for people to think about. Oftentimes when we are stressed, We get into this thing where something stressful happens, we can’t stop thinking about it, and not only can we not stop thinking about it, we’re thinking the worst.

[00:03:43] You need to go back for more test results, or someone sent you an email and you can’t quite tell the tone, something’s ambiguous, but instead of just assuming like, let me get more information, we jump to thinking the worst. And then, that obviously affects our physiology and our body, then we’re like, either feeling our heart [00:04:00] racing or feeling really tense, or our mind telling us this terrible.

[00:04:03] It’s going to be horrible. And then our body being a tense, hostile environment, those two things lead us to just avoid. Then we’re that much more stressed. So like you have a weird email and then you are acting in emotion driven ways. Maybe you’re mean to someone, send an aggressive text. Maybe you just decide I’m taking the day off work and I’m going to have to play catch up tomorrow.

[00:04:21] And so I think it’s so helpful for people to take a step back. What does my mind do when I’m stressed? How does that affect my body? What are my typical stress fueled behaviors? Do I go to like ordering Postmates? Do I do online shopping? Am I like kind of mean to people that I actually love? And for people to take a look and then you have a trifecta of ways to cope.

[00:04:41] And so. Sometimes stress is telling us that we need to, like, calm our symptoms down, but we also can’t actually make bigger changes in our lives if we’re on the stress hamster wheel.

[00:04:51] LM: So it’s about almost, do you remember that childhood game where the crocodiles would come out and you’d, like, bam them down with the mallet?

[00:04:58] Did you ever play that? It’s almost like you have [00:05:00] to bash the crocodiles with the mallet when they’re coming out, but then when The swamp is calm. That’s when you’re going to be in the position to say, Hey, do I really need to make some greater underlying changes here? I love the

[00:05:11] JT: image,

[00:05:12] LM: but it doesn’t

[00:05:12] JT: even need to be bash because it’s a lot of aggression when we’re in the stress cycle.

[00:05:17] But the getting out is the metaphor I like to use or analogy I like to use is almost like a Chinese finger trap when you’re in like the fighting, the pulling, the fighting stress. That’s when you’re really constricted. That’s when you have no room to think more broadly or actually solve problems in your life.

[00:05:31] It’s kind of like, oh, this is just what my mind does. Okay, let me put out a welcome mat for what my body’s gonna do in this moment. Okay, this is what my go to stress fueled action is gonna be. Let’s notice that that’s not gonna work. I’ve done that a million times and it’s never worked

[00:05:44] LM: well. Why do I keep Doing the things that I know haven’t worked historically.

[00:05:48] Like I have identified scrolling on social media doesn’t make me feel better. I have identified mindlessly shoving food into my mouth doesn’t make me feel better. I’ve even identified like [00:06:00] incessantly spiraling down this road in my brain doesn’t make me feel better, but I still do all of those

[00:06:06] JT: things.

[00:06:06] I am so happy that you asked this question. I think this is like a million dollar question. The reason that we do this is two reasons. Firstly, the things that you’re doing works short term. And so short term, you are getting a huge dose of relief. Two sources of relief. Number one, you’re escaping the stress.

[00:06:24] And number two, you’re adding something positive. If you order something like donuts when you’re really stressed at work, you’re not stressed at work and the taste of donuts is delightful. It’s hugely rewarding in the short term. And also oftentimes we remember our expectations rather than what actually happens.

[00:06:41] One of the ways to circumvent this trap is to really instead Think about the long term. One of the simplest, most powerful motivation tactics that people overlook, because it’s so simple, is even just like a quick four quadrant pros and cons list. So pros and cons of the donuts, pros and cons of the walk around the [00:07:00] block.

[00:07:00] Like it doesn’t have to be like doing the hardest thing. It could be something that’s a little pleasant, but not a lot of downside. And again, there’s actually nothing wrong with donuts. It just should be because I can eat them mindfully, not because I need to like run away from stress and like I’m so overwhelmed and I’m going to feel bad later and I’m not even going to pay attention while I’m eating them.

[00:07:16] And so by listing the pros and cons, you can actually separate out short term and long term and then you really submit and then you take a screenshot of the pros and cons and you have a quick cue of like, this is short term, incredibly positive and rewarding, but usually the things that we do when our emotions are really high, don’t help us long term.

[00:07:35] They totally backfire. They like create a snowball. You go from stressed about one thing to like guilt and shame. And so then you have a whole web of negative emotions rather than just the first thing. And there are a lot of other reasons why we do this. Another reason why we focus on trying to do the same old thing that has never served us is because we also might like, I think, oh my gosh, if I don’t get in there, my emotion is going to get worse.

[00:07:57] I’m not going to be able to handle it. But [00:08:00] emotions actually are just like waves. They go up and down. You don’t need to get in there and try to escape because that’s just going to create this snowball.

[00:08:08] LM: Are there any other little tricks? So you have identified this is going to be better for you in the long term versus the short term.

[00:08:14] But in the moment when I’m. Wanting the donuts, which again, we love donuts, but not when we’re just like using them to numb or just scrolling on social media and I’m like, go do the workout. Go for the walk to actually get us up off the couch in that moment, which feels like such a big hurdle. Are there any little tips or tricks we could use?

[00:08:32] JT: So many. Another one is urge surfing. A lot of times people think they have an urge for something and that urge is overwhelming and it’s going to just continue to increase if you don’t act on it. But actually if you really change your mind about what an urge is, an urge again like an emotion follows like a wave like pattern.

[00:08:52] Urges come in waves. You do not need to act on your urge if you take a step back. Urge surfing helped chronic smokers be able to put a [00:09:00] cigarette in their mouth and not smoke it. It sounds very simple, but it actually works. We think it’s either now or never, like I’m either going to give in to this urge, send the mean text now, or it’s going to bubble over and I’m going to send an even worse text in a couple hours.

[00:09:14] But if we just see, okay, this is just an urge, let me step back. Ride the wave. It will pass. It will pass. Also, I love helping people focus on wise mind because a lot of times, like, emotion mind, like, our intense emotions are running our lives, and our emotion mind is like, Hey, you need to do this. You need to call out.

[00:09:32] You need to browse social media. You need to clean out your inbox rather than do the thing that’s actually, like, due at 5 p. m. Hey, that’s emotion mind. If we could just call it what it is, it gives us a little bit of space. perspective and distance and awareness that this is just my little inner siren that likes to bother me and take me away from my long term goals.

[00:09:50] And after we have a slit, we do something that we know isn’t aligned with our long term goals. Taking a look at what went into play, what were your vulnerability factors? What were [00:10:00] the thoughts? And then you have a whole range of solutions because I don’t want to. Minimize like changes really hard. You need like this mix of like the pros and cons, urge surfing, willingness, noticing emotion, mind with this wise mind, like a sense of perspective.

[00:10:13] You need a sense of like, historically, it hasn’t worked for me. Cause maybe there’s something that we’re not, maybe you need to like work on having a super clear schedule. So things don’t feel so overwhelming. Anyone could do this. And the feeling of doing this is so much better than the short term feeling of whatever your emotion driven

[00:10:31] LM: impulses.

[00:10:32] Two questions about WiseMind. Is there something we could be doing on a regular basis to strengthen our access to WiseMind? And then is there something in the moment that we can do to switch from our more emotional mind to our WiseMind?

[00:10:44] JT: WiseMind, just to really step back and define it, is like a term from dialectical behavior therapy, which is a approach that really helps people improve their ability to cope with stressful moments and manage emotions.

[00:10:57] It a specific curriculum on emotion regulation and [00:11:00] distress tolerance. Wise mind is this intersection between head and heart. We all have a reasonable mind, which is just the facts, logic. Emotion mind is, like, really governed by emotions. Like, you’ll feel better if you do this thing that, you know, never makes you feel better reasonably.

[00:11:15] And wise mind is where the two overlap. Really slowing down and seeing, like, actually doing this heart thing will help me. Like, it never makes sense even if someone was rude to me to be aggressive with them. It generally doesn’t. There’s a lot of different exercises to tap into wise mind, but slowing down and even saying to yourself, is this wise mind?

[00:11:30] If you’re a more visual person, like imagining there’s a spiral staircase in you and you’re like going down slowly because there’s something about emotion mind that’s very frenetic and chaotic and moving too quickly. So just slowing down into a place within you and regularly doing this. will strengthen your wise mind.

[00:11:45] It’s like a muscle. Gathering these experiences of seeing that you used your wise mind will give you confidence that you have a huge wise mind. And my clients get annoyed with me because I’m like, you have an amazing, brilliant, wise mind and you need to tune in to hear it.

[00:11:59] LM: Hmm. I [00:12:00] find that putting my hand on my heart and just seeing it.

[00:12:02] I’m going to be sitting for a second in myself is really helpful. Also, have you heard of the Hoffman process? Yes. It’s like a five day. Yeah. It’s a mental health retreat. And one of the things they teach you there is almost that you have these different parts of yourself and how to access this higher part of yourself, this really intuitive way wise, incredible part of yourself that’s always there no matter what.

[00:12:23] They teach you how to figure out what are the characteristics of that person. And so then once you know what that person is and you almost have a image of that person, it’s easier to access. Like, oh, my authentic self is wise and kind and silly and loving. And you can, you know, Try to embody those characteristics because you know what they are, which I found really helpful.

[00:12:44] JT: Love that.

[00:12:44] LM: Yeah. Do you find disembodying a little bit? Like, imagining a separate person almost is helpful for accessing WiseMind.

[00:12:52] JT: Imagining yourself because there’s something about mental rehearsal? Like, okay. Today I started my work day with an hour of procrastination. What could I imagine would work [00:13:00] well tomorrow?

[00:13:00] Putting myself in the same situation and like mentally rehearsing is another tool that I love of coping ahead because that uses the same part of your brain as doing it. Literally like imagining doing it and doing it are the same parts of your brain. I

[00:13:13] LM: want to linger on that because I think people have vaguely heard that before, but we don’t almost internalize that imagining uses the same parts of our brain as actually doing the thing.

[00:13:22] Can you share any research or anything behind that? Cause I find it fascinating. Yeah,

[00:13:26] JT: I mean, the term in DBT is called coping ahead. And a lot of us do the opposite. We worry and really, like, get into a lot of detail on the worst case scenario. But if you do something different, like, mentally rehearsed, and this isn’t, like, a overly optimistic, like, usually something would take me, like, an hour, but it’s going to breeze through it in 15 minutes, and it’s going to be great, and people are going to give me the highest praise.

[00:13:46] But really imagining yourself in full detail, like, you know you’re going to have a difficult conversation with someone, you’re What are the things that might trip you up and how might you stay grounded and focused on your main objective, even in the face of their pushback? This [00:14:00] is a huge thing that athletes use as part of sports psychology.

[00:14:03] You’re using the same parts of your brain when you mentally rehearse, and this is such a nicer alternative than focusing on the worst or being too optimistic, which also is a problem. It’s very interesting. Like a lot of people with, you know, ADHD are too optimistic. They’re like, Oh, I work best under pressure.

[00:14:19] I get things done like at the last minute, better than anyone I know. I think that’s not an easy or comfortable approach. We need to realize like that the rules apply to us and be more realistic. Like, sure, you didn’t do that, but that didn’t feel great. And

[00:14:34] LM: yeah, that’s me. I have what I call a time abundance perspective, and it’s just like a, Kind way to myself of saying like I’m late all the time because I try to pack in so much to every single second So I’ll be like, of course I have to leave in 30 minutes I can get this email finished take a shower get my hair done I went for a run once like 20 minutes before I needed to like leave showered fully ready And I was like, it’ll be fine and I end up really stressed [00:15:00] out rushing around all the time because I’m trying to cram so much in

[00:15:04] JT: and as I totally relate to that and I used to be like that and I think that’s like why do we do these things because there’s It’s so reinforcing.

[00:15:09] It’s so amazing to feel like you milked every minute, but also to take a step back and realize like there’s a lot of times that might not work. Well, and

[00:15:16] LM: even when it does work, I’m just like, again, stressed. Fast forward. All the time. It’s another example of I know this isn’t serving me yet. I continue to do it.

[00:15:24] So would that be a situation I’d want to employ the pros and cons list?

[00:15:28] JT: You can totally employ the pros and cons list. And also you could really work on problem solving, like, Hey, what are the things that you think you need to do in this time? Even like let’s. plan them for times that are more workable and how do we make something that’s like realistic rather than overly ambitious and you could yeah pros and cons list and you could also just use good problem solving actually no like maybe I could do my run at the end of the day and that would actually be more delightful and like cooler outside and sunset and I’ll feel really prepared for my meeting because the pros of taking that run versus the cons of being late just when I slow down and take a [00:16:00] clear look at it.

[00:16:00] It just doesn’t align.

[00:16:02] LM: I was going to ask this later when we get into all of our stress scenarios that I’m going to have you solve for us. But since we’re talking about it now, a stress scenario I hear from a lot of people is there are literally too many things to do on any given day to do the things I need to do to keep my household running.

[00:16:15] If I have children, adding that in, adding in, making money, going to work, and then having any sort of self care restorative time while connecting with my partner, while connecting with my community, while connecting with any outside family, it just feels like quite literally too much every single day, and that gives people a lot of stress.

[00:16:33] What can we do about that? I

[00:16:35] JT: just want to start by normalizing, like, yes, there are too many things. This is not your fault. We are expected to do too much. We don’t have great solutions for child care. A lot of jobs demand that we be constantly on and responsive at all times. And so it is really, really hard.

[00:16:49] I think one thing that we could do is really think about what are things that we think that we’re doing that are working that might not be working. So, for example, like so many people when they are faced with so much to do, [00:17:00] multitask and multitask is actually really ineffective. And so maybe you’re like, Okay, I’m working and then I’m also checking my phone to like text messages to my partner about plans for tonight And then I’m also like ordering Groceries online.

[00:17:14] We’re doing too many things and then we’re not doing anything Well, and so if I’m dealing with a lot, what are the most essential things that I need to do today? And how can I be most effective in each domain and I see so many people swing between perfectionism and And procrastination. You have a lot to do.

[00:17:31] Like, maybe this isn’t the night to like, follow some like fancy Instagram chef’s very complicated recipe. Maybe we’re just going to do like a 10 minute crockpot meal. Really be like mindful of like, okay, what are the key things? What is aiming for good enough? And like, where can I not hold myself to unrealistic standards of doing 10 things at once?

[00:17:53] I totally identify as being perfectionistic, but a huge thing that I’m talking to a lot of clients. about us. Maybe at certain times it’s okay [00:18:00] to be B minus. Like I would say with confidence, I am like a C minus cook and that’s fine. I would rather be a C minus cook and an A to A plus therapist and an A friend than an A plus cook.

[00:18:13] That’s where my values align and nowadays like everything has become so complicated and focused on how things look rather than how they

[00:18:19] LM: feel. When I think social media obviously plays a huge role in that because you’re basically exposed to the A plus fashion person. The A plus Cook, the A plus psychologist, the A plus mom, the A plus every single thing you’re being bombarded with, and they’re probably only A plus at that one thing, but you take on whether you like it or not, and subconsciously or consciously, I should be A plus at all of these

[00:18:42] JT: things.

[00:18:43] Also, just on the topic of social media, we spend like 17 hours a week on social media, and so if you feel like there’s too much, that’s one easy way to reclaim like half of your It’s

[00:18:52] LM: not for, it’s like designed to be wildly addictive.

[00:18:55] JT: Totally about removing it from your phone. It’s really hard for someone like in your line of work.

[00:18:59] But [00:19:00] most people listening are not in my line of work. Yeah, most people are not in your line of work. I’m subject to the same rules as everyone else with regard to temptation, but like I literally do not have it on my phone. I barely post. I don’t follow anyone. So there’s not a lot of like lore. And I also think it’s, It’s so important to just realize we think that that’s like a little mini escape, but it often makes us feel like lousy about ourselves.

[00:19:19] It’s not like as replenishing as we think it’s, it’s going to be.

[00:19:22] LM: But it feels more fun in the moment. And this is a question I have. So social media feels more fun in the moment. Eating a fun snack feels more fun in the moment. Reality TV feels more fun in the moment. What is a stress reset? That feels the most fun.

[00:19:37] What is our most, this isn’t going to be work. This is going to be enjoyable stress reset that we can do. That’s actually good for us.

[00:19:43] JT: This is so person specific, but so many of these are fast. I cannot promise that these are going to be more fun than the things that you just described. What I could promise is that they’re going to have no downside and give you that boost of like, For example, I took an ice roller to my face and listened to my favorite song [00:20:00] and took a walk around the block with my phone at home.

[00:20:02] That’s not going to be as fun as watching an hour of TV, but I will feel recharged and there’s no downside. I’ll be able to get back to work. to what I was doing. I’ll actually have like a little mini vacation. I love that. Are there any

[00:20:13] LM: other ways? What’s one thing that we could all eliminate that would eliminate a lot of stress from our lives other than what we’ve talked about?

[00:20:21] JT: Overthinking is a huge one. We spend so much time overthinking. Like something is stressful for us. We dread it ahead of it happening. Then we experience it, and then we replay it endlessly for, like, much longer than it took. So overthinking would be a huge one. That is a way we torture ourselves, create stress in our body, and lose sleep.

[00:20:42] All of those things, like, make it harder to cope tomorrow. What can we do to snap out of an

[00:20:46] LM: overthinking cycle?

[00:20:48] JT: This is a really sneaky habit, and there’s a lot you could do. And, like, the things that work for one person might not work for another. And so I go through 10 ways to break free of overthinking and like between the 10, I’m very sure that something is going to work, but it’s [00:21:00] a lot of decision trees around what you need in the moment.

[00:21:03] So if you’re overthinking, about something that actually really mattered to you. Like someone really betrayed you or there’s something that you’re going through that really deserves reflection. Writing about that for 20 minutes over like four days actually reduces you thinking about it and allows you to like go deeper and actually like process.

[00:21:21] And if you give it your singular focus and dive deeper into your feelings, then you actually work through those feelings. And so people like college students that are asked to write about the worst thing that happened to them, it keeps coming up in their mind. well past it happening. If they write about it, they have reductions in anxiety and depression, even six months later after just a few days of writing.

[00:21:40] And so if something actually deserves further exploration, like further explore it rather than just have it like a news ticker constantly running in your mind. If there’s something that’s like the mental equivalent of spam, like I’m a loser. No one likes me. It’s just not helping you. And there’s no merit to thinking about it.

[00:21:57] You could play with your thoughts. A lot of us take our thoughts [00:22:00] so seriously, but what if you like saying that? The thought, I’m a loser to the tune of Do You Believe in Magic. I mean, just, it loses its sting. And just also to be really clear, this needs to be like, uh, upbeat song, not like certain songs are like really like, like Nine Inch Nails or something that’s really like depressing.

[00:22:18] Like when you do that, it takes the sting out of it and you just quickly realize this is just something my mind does when I’m about to go somewhere important that like I’m nervous about socially. How I’m going to connect with people, my mind haunts me with it. So I think there’s different things for different situations.

[00:22:31] And I just want people to know that even if you feel like you’re a professional overthinker, there are treatments. I’ve interviewed a lot of the experts that have developed some of these treatments to share some of those tips in the book to really help. There’s specifically like a therapy called rumination focused cognitive therapy.

[00:22:46] Ed Watkins is the developer

[00:22:48] LM: of that. So two questions on that. First of all, when you’re writing about something that you’re dwelling on, that you’re ruminating on, are you using specific prompts or are you just writing whatever comes to mind? You

[00:22:57] JT: are using specific prompts.

[00:22:58] LM: Okay, could you share [00:23:00] maybe one or two?

[00:23:00] JT: Sure, and they’re different prompts for different situations, but write in full detail about what happened, how it affected your life in the past. how it’s currently affecting your life. So each day you

[00:23:10] LM: have different focal points. And is it important to get to a place of how I wish this was impacting my life or some sort of positive twist on the whole thing or no.

[00:23:19] There’s different

[00:23:19] JT: experts that have different kind of instructions. But. You could write if you, like, look back on it and were going to change how things went, like, look back at an argument and revisit it from, like, the lens of someone that really wants the best for both parties involved, how they might see it.

[00:23:34] Like almost,

[00:23:35] LM: what would your wise self do in that situation?

[00:23:38] JT: Yeah, because then it helps you tomorrow, like, oh yeah, I thought that person was really dismissive of me, but no, they were actually just in their own head and not really aware rather than malicious.

[00:23:47] LM: And then secondly, I feel like a big rumination that I do is I wish I’d said this.

[00:23:52] I wish I’d done this. I went to a party and I said something and then I’m like, Oh, was that the right thing to say? Did they take that the right way? Or I’ll do a podcast and I’ll be [00:24:00] like, you didn’t ask this question, this question, this question. You dumb person. Would the singing trick be helpful for that kind of thing?

[00:24:06] Would I be like,

[00:24:07] JT: you didn’t ask the right questions. I love that you’re asking this Liz because I think it’s so helpful for listeners to hear that like even someone that has a top podcast has these thoughts and so I think even just the shared humanity of it all is so helpful. You could sing that song but I wouldn’t even be interested in you doing like loving kindness meditation like I know that after a social thing, I beat myself up thinking I should have asked a better question or I said the wrong thing.

[00:24:32] Rather than going into the weeds of that, I’m just going to notice that that’s what my mind does because I deeply care about connecting with people. And instead of getting into that, I’m going to say, May I be happy? May I be healthy? Maybe safe. So you could do loving kindness meditation, which is really powerful, and if you keep feeling like oh my gosh I keep forgetting the questions that I want to ask and This happens repeatedly.

[00:24:53] A huge tool to stop ruminating is problem solving, okay? Like maybe I’ll have a cue card or I [00:25:00] realized this happens to me all the time embarrassingly but I sometimes forget people’s names especially if there’s like people that I met once and in a big group setting at like a big cocktail party. And so before I’m about to see them again, I’d make sure I’m like, okay, what’s that person’s wife’s name?

[00:25:12] What’s that guy’s name? Remind me this person just so I don’t have a faux pas of like stumble and like, you know, need to introduce someone to someone else. And so you could do good problem

[00:25:22] LM: solving. I love that you mentioned that because I do think that there’s this divide with stress, with do I add in more practices?

[00:25:28] Do I add in more tools? Am I doing this meditation and this breath work in the moment? Or am I restructuring, reformatting my life, which is sort of what we were talking about earlier, like, when is this a signal that something needs to change, whether it’s I get a new job, I bring some cue cards to an interview, I plan some questions before I go to a party, And when is this just like, this is an emotional thing, you need to deal with the emotions in the moment.

[00:25:51] So I really like that your tips and techniques span both of those directions.

[00:25:57] JT: Yeah, it’s all about acceptance and change. [00:26:00] And the more you aren’t beating yourself up, the more you can focus on your questions. So how can we like lose what’s not working and add in what’s going to help?

[00:26:06] LM: What would you say to somebody who says the absolute best thing that I do to relieve my stress every day is to have a glass of wine at the end of the workday?

[00:26:15] JT: I understand that that is so tempting and I can understand why that physically relaxes you. And also, we know that wine is not great for sleep. And even a couple of glasses of wine can significantly affect sleep quality. And for a lot of people, it can affect our behaviors. Like we might not be able to access WiseMind after we’ve had a drink.

[00:26:35] It’s important to have like a diverse range of options. So maybe you do that on a Friday night. But it’s helpful to have like a whole host of things that you can do other nights of the week. And I don’t want everyone to hate me, but I would say the same thing is true about cannabis. A lot of people think that smoking a joint is like a great way to unwind after a stressful day.

[00:26:52] But the biggest thing that people want these days is motivation. And there’s such a huge link between using cannabis [00:27:00] and draining your motivation and not being able to think as quickly and sharply, which is what we need to do when we’re stressed. Some of the ways that people most typically cope with stress, whether it’s taking anti anxiety medication like Xanax or Klonopin, which 30 million Americans take, which actually also really slows us down and can even lead to cognitive decline if after long term use to cannabis, to drinking.

[00:27:22] Even patients of mine that are not alcoholics have found that not drinking just opens up so many more opportunities for them. They wake up earlier. That leads to, like, being able to work out in the morning. It creates a virtuous cycle to let go of. And I just want people to expand their minds of, I don’t need anything outside of myself.

[00:27:39] I am my best pharmacy.

[00:27:40] LM: I love that. Let’s say we want that physiological response, though. Like, when you drink the glass of wine, when you take a hit of that joint and you’re just like, Ugh, or the, take the Xanax, you feel your body having this really physical response. What is a stress reset that gets us the closest to that experience?

[00:27:59] JT: A [00:28:00] body scan, like tensing and releasing your muscles, like I can tense my forehead, release, notice the difference between tension and relaxation, tense my lips. Release. Notice difference between tension and relaxation with each inhale and exhale. Relaxing my forehead, my lips, tensing my shoulders. Going down, I’m like not a napper at all.

[00:28:18] Like that’s not me. I like feel like I have caffeine in my veins. And I did this at a professional training and I like literally fell asleep in minutes. Like I had to pair up with another professional and we led each person through the body scan. This is incredibly physically relaxing, just tensing and releasing.

[00:28:33] If you don’t want to tense, even just bringing your full attention, you could do this now with me, to like your left toes, and like sending your breath into your left toes one at a time, and then sending your breath to your left calf, and then really releasing any tension there without even tensing, just noticing it and like sending air into that part of your left thigh, drop down to the right toes.

[00:28:56] And we would do this very slowly, but there’s a lot of things, even just very simply breathing [00:29:00] in for five. And out for five with your mouth closed. So,

[00:29:12] this is called coherent breathing and this like slows our breathing down significantly. We typically breathe about 18 breaths per minute. This slows it to about a third of that. So six breaths per minute and it creates like a sense of physical tranquility and all of these things. Again, this is not going to be the same as something that we’re taking that’s going to knock us out quickly, but we’re creating this priceless feeling of accomplishment and self efficacy.

[00:29:36] And these things are really accessible, and like, these things really work. We think we’re so stressed, I need something big, but actually the smaller things can make the most profound impact.

[00:29:44] LM: If you had to choose one thing that everybody would do every single day to just kind of preemptively keep their stress levels lower, what would you choose?

[00:29:51] JT: Oh my gosh, this is like choosing your favorite kid. I think exercise is really helpful for everyone. I love scheduling. I like sticking to like a plan, not a mood, like [00:30:00] really scheduling because then everything has a time and place and you don’t need to be thinking about it or worrying about it or trying to scramble in the last minute or realizing like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize this was.

[00:30:09] Due today. Sticking to a plan rather than a mood exercise is really great for us to feel like a sense of accomplishment and a growth mindset and a sense of, I can do hard things and my body’s serving

[00:30:20] LM: me. Are you scheduling things that are maybe above and beyond what a lot of people are scheduling so that you are sticking to a plan and not a mood?

[00:30:27] I

[00:30:27] JT: mean,

[00:30:27] LM: yeah, I think it’s

[00:30:28] JT: really important to schedule pleasant events just as much as things that you need to do to like. be responsible as an adult. One of my favorite tools that I talk about, which I think underlies all of this, is opposite action. Like not acting the way you feel when acting the way you feel will not help.

[00:30:43] So like if you’re really anxious, it’s so tempting to avoid and skip all the things that actually matter. And again, this is not easy, but you need to think more flexibly. You need to like break it down into small parts. You need to like see That doing what you’ve been doing, like, is keeping you stuck.

[00:30:59] LM: [00:31:00] Yeah, I think breaking it down into small parts is one of the most helpful things for me because when you’re stressed, everything does feel really, really overwhelming, which is my fear even in this type of conversation is if you’re stressed, the idea of adding in more things to alleviate your stress can feel really stressful.

[00:31:16] JT: These are small things in minutes, like in literally 30 seconds. I could take a bowl full of ice, ice and water combined, set a timer so I know how long this is going to take, hold my breath and submerge my face in the ice water. And if I’m wearing an Apple watch, my heart rate will come down significantly.

[00:31:31] If you’re ruminating, you will not be ruminating when you come out overthinking. And you’ll just come to realize, like, I just did something hard. In 30 seconds, your heart rate came down. Your brain stopped on the line of thinking that wasn’t helping you. And that just took 30 seconds. And yeah, that’s not the most comfortable thing.

[00:31:46] But it seemed like it really helped. And so I think there’s a lot of things that we could do. And the first step is the hardest. And then things kind of get easier, but it’s so much less stressful to do the things that will ultimately help us. Like doing laundry for five minutes. Not laundry, you can’t do [00:32:00] laundry for five minutes, but you can fold it for five minutes.

[00:32:02] Like

[00:32:02] LM: I, that’s my chore in my house is folding the laundry. It’s like my only chore, but I still have a really hard time doing it. So I’ve tried to take these little interstitial moments where I’m like between calls or something and fold five minutes of laundry. And it actually is really helpful. Let’s talk about the ice water thing for a second, because that’s one of the ones that’s like blown up on Tic Tac and people are like, Is this real?

[00:32:21] Is there science behind this? So can you share some of the mechanisms of action behind why sticking your face in a bowl of ice water would relieve your stress? Yes.

[00:32:29] JT: So as people, we all have this mammalian dive responsibility. When our face is submerged in cold water, our body redirects blood flow from non-essential to essential organs.

[00:32:39] It activates the vagus nerve and it just creates this feeling of like physical calm. It’s like the fastest way to recalibrate. I should just say very clearly that if you have a cardiac condition, this isn’t advisable because your heart rate again will drop suddenly. But you don’t need, I think a lot of people are also very into like ice baths, that you just need to submerge your face.

[00:32:59] You don’t need to [00:33:00] buy like a whole apparatus, like this is just your face in a salad bowl full of ice or frozen vegetables and water, but this is something that is a really powerful thing that I’ve personally tried. My clients have done this. It’s pretty interesting. And again, it’s like this really powerful reminder that we think that we need like so many fancy things outside of ourselves, the bigger, the better, but like

[00:33:18] LM: our body has a time response.

[00:33:19] Stimulating the vagus nerve is another thing that’s kind of very trendy to talk about online. Do you believe, though, that stimulating the vagus nerve in general is a fast path to stress reduction? The slow breathing thing

[00:33:30] JT: and the ice thing both do that. And so I think this word vagus nerve, like people get excited about like a fancy term, but breathing will help with that.

[00:33:38] And so we’ll. The cold water, um, in your face.

[00:33:41] LM: Can I share some other social media hacks to stimulate your vagus nerve? Yes. And you can tell me whether they’re valid or not. One I have heard is to sleep on your right side to strengthen your vagus nerve.

[00:33:49] JT: No idea. I’ve never heard of that. And I should just clarify, I’m a clinical psychologist.

[00:33:54] Yeah. I’m like an expert. We’re doing, like, evidence based treatments. I do not know tons about, like, right side, left side, like Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah.

[00:34:00] LM: What about pulling on your ear? Like, putting your finger

[00:34:03] JT: in your ear and pulling down? Not sure, but I just wanted to add with some of these things. The placebo effect is real, and if you believe something like that is going to help you, it might help you.

[00:34:11] And that’s not to dismiss that, like, that’s just placebo. But even just believing, like, if I do this thing, it’s going to help me actually helps.

[00:34:18] LM: Yeah, that’s so interesting. I do think a lot of us, okay, so I’m afraid of flying and I can help you with that. Okay, help me with my fear of flying. What are you afraid of when you’re flying?

[00:34:28] Death. That the plane is gonna crash? Yes. Is there a specific part that’s very stressful for you? When the doors close and I can no longer get off, I tend to be better When we’re in the air, and even though landing is the second most dangerous part of a flight, I’m pretty good on landing because I’m kind of like, we’re going in the right direction.

[00:34:44] We’re going towards the ground, which is ideal.

[00:34:47] JT: Right. Does turbulence stress you out?

[00:34:48] LM: Yes.

[00:34:49] JT: Do you have panic

[00:34:49] LM: attacks on the plane? Sometimes, but I have tools. It’s more like I’m in this state of heightened anxiety. And what I was going to say earlier is that I believe [00:35:00] that if I’m not anxious, I have this underlying belief that I’ve identified pretty recently.

[00:35:03] that my anxiety is a thing that’s protecting me and protecting the plane from going down. And so I do think we have these fake beliefs about our stress is helping us. And so with the fear of flying, I’ve realized I think there’s this part of me that doesn’t want to let go of my fear of flying because I’m afraid there will be catastrophic consequences.

[00:35:20] JT: So it’s so interesting. People have like such positive beliefs, like my stress is protecting me, my anxiety is protecting me. And also such negative beliefs of like, I’m going to kill myself or give myself an ulcer with the stress that I’m carrying. It’s helpful to just like notice those beliefs. In terms of what if I die, this is such a hard one and such a helpful one.

[00:35:37] And again, these are like workouts that you need to repeatedly practice, but radical acceptance, like I can’t micromanage my lifespan, my longevity, I need to like trust because the facts are there. Like I would not say this when it comes to do something really risky and just radically accept that. It is what it is, but when it comes to flying, like, radically accepting, like, I, I might die.[00:36:00]

[00:36:00] It’s okay.

[00:36:01] LM: How do we gauge the risk properly, though? So, like, with all of the Boeing stuff in the news, it’s really reinvigorated my fear of flying, which I’d made great, great strides with, because I’m like, whoa, maybe it is actually more dangerous than I thought, and maybe the FAA isn’t protecting me as much as I thought.

[00:36:18] Or there’s other things that I feel like I’m really afraid of, like getting struck by lightning on a trail, and I’m like, Oh, this is in my mind, but then I go and Google it, and it’s like, Oh, shocking amount of people have gotten struck by lightning. I feel like that risk assessment component of it, of there’s actually not that much risk, so I should practice radical acceptance, that’s really hard for me.

[00:36:36] JT: Look at like possible versus probable. They’re great. fear of flying, like training courses led by pilots with a specific Boeing concern. If there’s a particular plane that’s repeatedly in the news for being implicated in crashes or technical issues, you can easily search if you’re taking that kind of plane.

[00:36:53] And also, we have to just remember that, you know, anyone that’s had an issue flying.

[00:36:57] LM: No, but I know people have had, [00:37:00] like, emergency landings and things like that. Did you hear about the story with the plane door, like, flew off in the middle of the flight? Everybody’s like, well, nobody died, so it’s great. And I’m like, if I go on a flight and the plane door flies off in the middle of the flight, that’s it for me.

[00:37:13] You know what I mean? Like, I’m afraid of the fear in addition to being afraid of the catastrophic effects of a plane crash.

[00:37:19] JT: Right. So, one of my favorite counterintuitive things is really practicing accepting physical sensations of fear. If in the moment you could tell yourself, I’m in an emotion mind, my body’s stress response, like any physical symptoms of stress, are okay.

[00:37:33] But if, once you tell yourself you’re in an emotion mind, your body’s not going to be in this panic ridden state. But if you have a panic ridden state and you’re like, it’s okay, this is just what my body does when I’m, in unfamiliar situations and then you act opposite what you would do if you were panicking like not call the stewardess a hundred times not ask people what they think not text frantically to people about what’s going on and stressing you out like you would start to feel differently we’re also terrible at predicting how we’ll cope with hard [00:38:00] things Like, I was recently on a flight that, I don’t want to scare you, but lightning hit the plane and that was remarkably fine.

[00:38:06] It was like, wow, that was kind of weird. I didn’t even know exactly what it was until afterwards. I was like, oh yeah, the plane was What happens? Is it like shake? It was kind of like shaking and you saw the lightning flash. My kids were sitting next to me, their little kids, they were like, that was cool.

[00:38:17] Like, I mean, I think because so much of it is in our mind. It’s like, this is bad, but it’s like, no, it’s kind of cool. Nothing bad happened.

[00:38:22] LM: I love the idea of, Almost like thing for thing being like, what would I normally do in this situation? And then doing the opposite thing. Like I would normally tense up, okay, how can I get my body to relax?

[00:38:32] I would normally research all the stats and be on my turbulence checker. Okay, how can I do something completely different?

[00:38:38] JT: Yeah. And I also like this thing of like, in the nicest way, it’s none of your business. Like you policing, like, is this dangerous? Is this okay? Is this weird? In the nicest way, it is none of your business.

[00:38:48] You are like a passenger. You’re not the pilot. But you get to like, Read your book and put on your playlist. Life is full of uncertainty, and we need to learn to accept it. Otherwise, we are going to struggle tremendously with [00:39:00] anxiety. Do you have hot tips for learning to accept uncertainty? Noticing the things that we do that hold us back from accepting uncertainty.

[00:39:06] So over checking, over researching, asking too many people. Really trying to practice sitting with uncertainty. Can you stagger how often you check email? Can you wait a day before calling about medical test result that’s not an emergency? Like the more things we can do to actually practice work up

[00:39:23] LM: to harder things.

[00:39:25] I love that. Okay, I’m going to give you a few more social media things and then we’ll get into stress scenarios. Doing something that makes you laugh, like watching a funny show. Does laughing override Stress.

[00:39:35] JT: Laughing is great for us, and like, it’s a quick way to diffuse. We don’t need to even watch a funny show.

[00:39:39] Like, I feel like you could probably watch a funny clip or think of something funny that happened to you. But yeah, laughing is great, and I think inserting more levity into your days is great.

[00:39:47] LM: Listening to 528 hertz music or 432 hertz music, does that have an impact

[00:39:53] JT: on stress? I will say that listening to the song Weightless by Marconi Union has helped people a lot with anxiety and this is like [00:40:00] heavily researched and you should not do this while you’re driving because it is so sedating that you could fall asleep but the song Weightless by Marconi Union was like designed by sound therapists to help people experience physical calm.

[00:40:10] LM: And can you explain what’s actually happening there? Because it feels crazy to me that music could have this physiological effect on our body. But then when I think about it, I’m like, Oh, when I’m like listening to fun songs, I feel fun and happy. So I feel it working. But what’s actually happening in our brains?

[00:40:27] JT: Music has a huge effect on our mood. Like in research studies, when you’re trying to assess how people make decisions when they’re stressed or happy, you can use music and we could just think of it in our own lives, how A song could make us tear up or a song could make us dance in our chairs. And so the song actually was a huge impetus for writing this book because hearing about this study where people before they went into surgery, half of the participants, half of the people that were going to go into surgery, listened to this song, half got a benzodiazepine, which is full of side effects.

[00:40:53] Remarkably, the song had almost the same effects of the medication with no side effects. [00:41:00] And that blew my mind.

[00:41:00] LM: And it is on Spotify. I’ve checked that myself. What about putting your legs up a wall?

[00:41:07] JT: Yeah, there’s something about inversions, and that counts as an inversion that, like, redirects blood flow, and I like that like putting your legs up the wall is not like lying down where you might fall asleep, but it’s just a moment of relaxation.

[00:41:20] I also just kind of like that you’re like upward gazing, changing perspective. People that do this in yoga find that it creates like a feeling of relaxation. You could add on to that like some relaxing music. Again, the small

[00:41:31] LM: things

[00:41:32] JT: can make a big difference.

[00:41:32] LM: It feels almost like cheating, but when I’m in a bad grumpy mood and then I put on an upbeat song that I love and kind of like dance around or sing to it a little bit, I feel I feel drastically different.

[00:41:43] I almost feel like I’m annoyed because I’ll be like, I wanted to be grumpy right now. But then you put the song on and you’re like, Oh, wait, this is great. I’m not grumpy anymore. Totally. Yeah, I really like it. Okay, I’m going to give you some scenarios that people commonly experience stress in and I want you to give us just one stress reset, one hack, [00:42:00] one thing that we can do in the moment to help with that.

[00:42:01] How can we deal with the stress of not being able to sleep and then the vicious cycle of that stress making you even more unable to sleep?

[00:42:07] JT: Love it. Is that wake time? Love it. So have like a set time that you wake up because this is sort of like jet lag. If you don’t sleep well, people typically start hitting snooze and then they wake up later and then they’re going to have a hard time falling asleep the next night.

[00:42:24] So one of the best tricks to improve sleep From CBT for insomnia, which is research back to help as much as medications for sleep, is having a set wake time, a set bedtime. CBT for insomnia is like a really remarkable treatment, and for people that have more complicated challenges with this, there are like apps that can help with this, and there’s It’s relatively affordable online programs for CBT for insomnia, but having a set wake time, even if you don’t sleep that night, that will be an insurance policy to help you tomorrow.

[00:42:50] Other things that you could do is like the body scan, slow breathing, weightless, and also radically accepting, like, it’s okay. Most of us have had nights that we

[00:42:57] LM: haven’t slept. I love that. Okay. How [00:43:00] can we deal with the stress of something exciting coming up that we want to make the most of, like a wedding or a vacation?

[00:43:05] JT: Really mentally rehearsing, like how we’re going to be present in the moment and like really being present in the moment, like what are the things I could do? on the vacation or the wedding to feel like that was like time well spent. How can I really like pay attention to seizing this time? Like maybe it’s something that you didn’t even think of like really like experiencing without trying to like put up something between you and the experience.

[00:43:23] LM: Like what do I actually want to get out of this? What will make me feel the best at the end of this experience? Yeah, and

[00:43:28] JT: maybe really setting things in place like away messages and commitments to yourself. If you need to check your phone, maybe check it at a set time.

[00:43:34] LM: It is so interesting how even these exciting things like some of my worst nights of sleep in my life, the night before my wedding, I slept like this.

[00:43:40] Three hours, and I was up at 5 a. m. sending my dad to the grocery store to get, like, popcorn accoutrement. It sucks, because it’s like, I’m excited about this thing. This is when I want to be the most well rested. This is when I want to feel my best. And that feeling of, I’m not going to feel my best because I was so excited, so that impacted my sleep, is just so frustrating.

[00:43:58] JT: But you still felt so excited. [00:44:00] Yeah. I think it’s fine. I literally did not sleep for years because of my kids, and I felt like I was still able to perform. I also want to normalize, like, it is extremely hard not to sleep. You should prioritize sleep. But if it doesn’t happen, it’s fine. One of the most helpful things someone told me was I ran the marathon a number of years ago.

[00:44:16] It was just like a whim kind of dream, and I trained for it, but I didn’t train enough. The most helpful thing that the coach told me was like no one sleeps the night before the marathon because I was like, Oh my god, I have to get up at four. I better fall asleep. I like probably slept three hours and I ran 26 miles not super fast But that’s just like something that I often think about of like there’s so much pressure to sleep, but our bodies are

[00:44:34] LM: resilient It’s such a good proof point to have for yourself that you can reflect back on and I bet Everybody listening has some type of proof point that they could have for themselves to like Look, I didn’t sleep and I still performed really well that day.

[00:44:46] What is the best way to deal with the stress of being stuck in traffic when you’re running late for something?

[00:44:51] JT: You can relax your face because relaxing your face creates an ambience for your mind. And so if you’re tensing your face and scowling and like clenching your hands on the [00:45:00] steering wheel, you will probably have thoughts of, this is ridiculous.

[00:45:03] This is so annoying. And like this honking horn. But if you relax your face, relax your hands, that. creates a landscape that allows you to quiet your mind and this is what it is like life is sitting in traffic and I’m going to get there either way. And if I’m causing a train wreck in my body, I’m not going to help myself.

[00:45:19] Tell me about the half smile for stress reduction. Yeah. So ever so slightly raising the upper corners of your lips, a quarter of a smile, it doesn’t need to be very big releases tension in your brow. And I think it’s a nice inroad to practicing this idea of radical acceptance of accepting it. Just, there’s like a facial feedback loop.

[00:45:35] So relaxing our face does also relax our thought pattern. And it’s hard to imagine like being in a situation where you’re annoyed and half smiling. And having, like, annoying thoughts is just incompatible.

[00:45:46] LM: How do we deal when the stress that we’re experiencing is necessary for future happiness? Like, I’m working really hard today, but I don’t want to stop working really hard today because I feel like someday that’s going to pay off.

[00:45:58] JT: I don’t know if that’s stressful. I [00:46:00] think you could frame that as excitement. Like, I think you could really appreciate that, like, life is stressful and stress isn’t bad. Stress is, like, the price of a meaningful life. All meaningful endeavors include stress. Your book was probably very stressful. Every book is really stressful.

[00:46:12] That’s probably a high point in your career. And so I think reappraising stress. I am excited. This is an opportunity. And also being mindful of the ways it might take a toll on you. Like, maybe I won’t make time for friends, but, like, being mindful of how to Do both.

[00:46:26] LM: Can you expand on the idea that stress is the price that we pay for a meaningful life?

[00:46:29] We all need

[00:46:30] JT: some amount of stress. Like stress means that we’re doing things. If we had a life with no stress we would be doing nothing and clueless and not caring people. Realizing that like stress is part and parcel of life and it’s not bad. It helps us focus. It helps us Get things done. If I wasn’t anxious about being on time today, I would have been like hours late.

[00:46:50] And so again, like I wasn’t like paralyzed by anxiety, but some amount of stress is good. I mean, that allows us to get things done. It allows us to [00:47:00] focus. It allows us to communicate to other people that we need help. There’s something about And this is not the stress that we’re manufacturing with thinking the worst and acting in ways that don’t help us.

[00:47:12] But like life is stressful.

[00:47:14] LM: What’s the best way to deal with something stressful that we know is coming down the line like a meeting with our boss or Thanksgiving with family that’s harder for us to get along with? I

[00:47:23] JT: think problem solving ahead and mentally rehearsing. And I love a tool called a dear man, which is like a script about how to like have difficult conversations.

[00:47:31] Transcribed And so rather than going and feeling like, oh my gosh, what’s going to happen, it’s going to be terrible. Actually knowing like how to have the conversation.

[00:47:38] LM: I love that. One of your books is called End Emotional Eating. Stress is obviously a huge driver of emotional eating. So how can we stop letting stress drive us to eating things that aren’t going to make us feel good in the long run?

[00:47:51] JT: Oftentimes when we’re stressed, some people don’t eat enough and some people eat too much. So I think really getting into the routine. Of sticking to a plan, not a mood. For [00:48:00] many people, three meals and two snacks works well. Even just taking a moment to think to yourself, am I physically hungry? Or am I stressed?

[00:48:06] If I could rate my hunger. On a zero to five scale, where is it? If I could rate my stress, where is it? And then again, like having a plan, like I know during stressful times, I tend to tell myself that I need to order something that isn’t part of my health goals to really like learn from past experiences of like what works for you and what doesn’t work for you.

[00:48:24] LM: It is annoying though. Why does my mind think that ordering take out that makes me feel bad? is the solution to stress. Like, it’s just like a weird connection that my mind learned to make.

[00:48:34] JT: Yeah, and it’s hard. I mean, you might need more food when you’re stressed. Like, you’re sleeping less and you’re working longer hours.

[00:48:39] You might need more fuel. But I think to be thoughtful about, like, what are the things that most nourish me and, like,

[00:48:45] LM: help me. What is the best way to deal with the stress of social anxiety when you’re going to a party and you may not know that many people?

[00:48:51] JT: I love an acronym called GIVE. I’m like a big acronym person, and a lot of people put pressure on themselves to be hilarious and [00:49:00] brilliant and mysterious all at once.

[00:49:02] And instead, if you just focus on like being gentle. Interested, validating, really focusing on turning the spotlight off of you to someone else and making someone else feel seen and appreciated. That is like a huge way to not get lost and like worrying about the things that aren’t going to help you. Is that from research or is that your acronym?

[00:49:22] That is from Dialectical Behavior Therapy. They have an interpersonal effectiveness unit that is really helpful and I use all these things myself. Interesting. Can you repeat the G I V E again? Yes. It’s being gentle. Uh huh. Interested. Uh huh. Validating. And having an easy manner. So going up to someone and starting a conversation rather than trying to be like the king of the table or being super assertive or super loud.

[00:49:46] You can even just focus on the V. Like just focusing on me and validating. Really just paying attention to someone else.

[00:49:51] LM: I did a podcast about fun and The woman that I was interviewing, Catherine Price, said that one of the best ways to be perceived as a [00:50:00] fun person is to be a yes and person, which reminds me of your validating thing.

[00:50:04] So, so many of us, I’ve noticed this and she said it, we almost have this urge to kind of poop on the party a little bit, to yuck somebody’s yam, or like, Oh, I didn’t really like that show, or like, I don’t really feel like going to that place. And she’s like, just try being a yes and person for a little bit and obviously don’t do anything that’s against your core beliefs or values.

[00:50:21] But in general, lean in to the validation. And people will perceive you as fun and also you will likely have more fun.

[00:50:28] JT: Yeah,

[00:50:29] LM: it’s so easy

[00:50:30] JT: to get into, what did this person think of me?

[00:50:31] LM: But the more you just focus on someone else. Yeah, completely agree. Okay. This one is for me. How do we deal with the stress of our.

[00:50:42] Existence like how do we deal with the existential anxiety that we have this one life on the planet and so if I have like a day where I rot in bed all day because I’m really burnt out and I needed that day and then I’ll be like you had this one day in your human existence, which is pretty finite at the end of the day and you [00:51:00] wasted that day.

[00:51:01] And then that feeling makes me want to like rot in bed more because it’s really overwhelming. I have a lot of existential anxiety. How do we deal with that stress?

[00:51:10] JT: With the rotting in bed and feeling bad about it, look, just like stress can be helpful, like negative emotions can be helpful. I spent the day in bed and that didn’t feel good and I felt like that was wasteful.

[00:51:20] How can I use this bad feeling to dictate how I do tomorrow? That could be helpful. Having a clear sense of like, what? your values are and what matters to you. Can be a remedy for anxiety about like what is happening and what is the meaning and to get more focused on like what? Is meaningful to me or how can I do something that feels meaningful?

[00:51:39] I

[00:51:39] LM: am trying to use that feeling I have after that day to inform that day but I just do feel like I go through these cycles of like work work work work work and Also have fun have fun have fun pad like I’m seizing the day seizing the day and then I’ve almost like seized too much of The day I’ve carpe’d too much DM and I’m like blah and then I just kind of like Yeah,

[00:51:58] JT: so maybe it’s just more [00:52:00] balanced like day to day of not feeling like you’re exhausting yourself or doing too much on the fun or the work, but like more of a middle path

[00:52:07] LM: on

[00:52:07] JT: both and then it’s not like you need to crash.

[00:52:10] LM: Yeah. I will work on that. Okay. How do we deal with the stress of reading the news and having it feel awful, but wanting to be an informed good citizen?

[00:52:18] JT: Focusing on what you can control. I interviewed an expert because I wrote an article actually about how to follow the news without falling into despair.

[00:52:25] And he talked about different forms of empathy and there’s like a more cognitive form of empathy because I think a lot of people that are empathic try to put themselves in someone else’s shoes and we were reading about something in the news and wondering how you would feel if that was you. And realizing that that doesn’t help, you don’t need to put yourself in someone else’s shoes to imagine what they’re going through and then be in a position to help.

[00:52:46] And so sometimes we like overstep, like take on other people’s feelings that aren’t ours to feel and then that burns us out and then we can’t help. Another thing that we could do is watch our language. It’s very tempting these days to like write on X like the world is falling apart [00:53:00] and get into like future catastrophizing.

[00:53:02] But to focus on the facts, without making things that much worse, and the facts are we don’t know what’s going to be in the future.

[00:53:09] LM: Interesting. To the first point, there’s a proverb that I find really helpful and it’s to illustrate the difference between compassion and empathy and the idea is you’re walking by a hole and somebody’s in the hole and the empathetic person goes, Oh no, you’re in the hole.

[00:53:20] And you like jump in there with them. And then you’re both in the hole. And the compassionate person walks by and goes, Oh, I’ll get a ladder and then you’ll climb out of the hall. Yeah, I think that’s huge. Okay, this is similar, but a little bit different. How do we deal with the stress about catastrophes happening in the future, like another pandemic or nuclear war, just these places that our brains can go?

[00:53:38] JT: I love very simple, but anchoring in the present, like feeling your feet on the floor, doing a three point check. What am I thinking? Yeah. What am I feeling? What am I doing? I’m coming back to the moment repeatedly. If we keep going into the future and like a disaster situation, continuously practicing, coming back to the present moment because we’re terrible at predicting how we’ll feel in the future.

[00:53:59] Like most people [00:54:00] cope with things better than they imagine. And we’re all so very bad at predicting the future and repeatedly trying to practice quick

[00:54:05] LM: ways to reenter the moment. I do think the pandemic is sort of an interesting example of that, which is, I’ve been afraid of a pandemic my entire life, since I can remember, I was like, the 1918 flu, guys, like, let’s pay attention to this, this could happen any day now.

[00:54:19] And then when it did happen, it was obviously horrible. And I wish it didn’t happen. I personally was able to mentally deal with it in a way that I would not have predicted as somebody who was afraid of a pandemic for quite literally my entire life.

[00:54:33] JT: And that is so universal. We really are terrible at predicting how we will cope.

[00:54:36] And so there’s very little benefit to like, Telling yourself, if this thing happens, I will lose it, and I won’t be able to manage because You will be able to manage.

[00:54:45] LM: I’ve also heard you say that you have a very specific definition of hope. Hope is a clear sense of purpose and a willingness to persist in moving toward that purpose.

[00:54:53] I thought that was really interesting. I’m curious how you would apply that definition of hope to [00:55:00] the general sense of hopelessness that a lot of people have about things like climate change or the political situation.

[00:55:06] JT: I think the more we take action that’s within our reach, the more we do experience some hope we can easily like, feel.

[00:55:11] Hopeless because we’re throwing our hands up and thinking there’s no point to doing anything it’s over But hope is really also like an action and the more we can act. Hopefully we can tap into some feelings of hope so

[00:55:22] LM: Finding a clear sense of purpose in whatever the situation that we’re dealing with What is my purpose in it?

[00:55:28] Even if it’s really small and then having a willingness to move toward that Yeah, I love that. It’s so clarifying for a concept that feels really amorphous, I think. How do we deal with the stress about having health conditions, like having asthma, and the worry about how that would show up in your life?

[00:55:43] JT: Moment to moment, really focusing on what are the specific symptoms that are affecting you, and not getting into, like, how am I going to live with this for 10 years from now, and it’s going to be terrible, like, with an attitude

[00:55:52] LM: of willingness. Mm, I love that. I also think we don’t know what the future is going to hold.

[00:55:56] Like, when I was agoraphobic, I, would never have predicted [00:56:00] my life now, and if I’d been like, Oh, in 10 years, am I going to be even less able to interact with people? Blah, blah, blah. Like, I would have probably not wanted to go on, you know, but I would have never predicted this would have been my life today.

[00:56:11] We don’t know what the future holds. Which is interesting. What’s the best way to deal when you are stuck in a high stress environment like airport security or when you’re exiting a concert and you’re all packed in like sardines?

[00:56:23] JT: I feel like I sound like a broken record but I think acceptance and like the half smiling and like not like what are the things that you’re going to do like tense up and like push and you know that’s not going to help to just like let go of trying to control the situation and just like

[00:56:36] LM: Um.

[00:56:36] Be a good sport. What about somebody who’s stressed about getting out of debt, like credit card debt, student loans, and they just feel that crushing weight of financial stress?

[00:56:44] JT: One step at a time. The willingness to persist and like a clear sense of, I mean, I think the more you can, even if you set aside like 20 a week, which I know can be a lot for people, but that having a sense of like, I am moving towards something that’s, it, it’s, Big, but I’m moving towards it.

[00:56:58] I don’t want to overly [00:57:00] simplify. I was really struck by this. I interviewed someone for the book that’s like a money stress expert. Most people don’t know how much debt they have. And so even just knowing like, how much debt do you have? And then you can engage in some sort of debt payment plan. So even just making the first call to find out like, what is that number?

[00:57:14] LM: Yeah, I feel like a huge underlying theme is any action that you can take is going to make you feel better. And we sometimes think we need this huge action to make us feel better, which prevents us from taking any action at all. But if we can find a little action, we will actually feel better. And then we can take the next little action, the next little action.

[00:57:32] JT: Absolutely. I love that. And like a huge mantra is avoid avoiding.

[00:57:36] LM: Yeah. Avoid avoiding. Oh, I like that. Okay. I just have a few more. What is one tip for dealing with the stress of caring for aging parents? physically and financially while simultaneously trying to live your own life.

[00:57:47] JT: It’s so hard. I mean, this is so hard and something that so many of my clients are dealing with right now.

[00:57:51] It really takes a village and the more you could potentially troubleshoot and join a caregiving community and delegate what you can. I think a lot of self compassion [00:58:00] and a lot of realizing that like maybe you are spread pretty thin, but maybe you can do small things that would help

[00:58:05] LM: a little bit. I’m wondering if this is part of that perfectionism conversation we were having earlier where you’re wanting to be the A plus.

[00:58:13] And probably also the A plus partner and the A plus person at work. And it’s just this other thing you’re trying to outperform in your life. And it’s really hard to say, I can’t be an A plus caregiver to my parents right now while being an A plus partner and an A plus parent, maybe, because I think a lot of people are, you know, Carrying up and carrying down.

[00:58:32] JT: Right. It’s also willingness to do hard things. A lot of people that I am working with, like, their parents are resisting, like, home health aides, and they really need them. I mean, they’re at a risk to themselves in terms of, like, maybe leaving the stove on, or Um, maybe driving and they’re not in a good position to drive.

[00:58:50] And so maybe willingness to focus on the higher thing of like their safety rather than them liking you. So getting really clear on what your ultimate goals are and being willing to accept [00:59:00] discomfort in the service of longer term peace of mind.

[00:59:01] LM: And when we’re going into maybe that difficult conversation with our parents that we might be stressed out about, like, Hey, I think you should consider in home care.

[00:59:09] What are our alternatives here? Is that an opportunity to do that rehearsal and, like, play over how you want it to go in your mind? Sure, yeah,

[00:59:16] JT: because I think if you come at that, like, too aggressive, like, you could totally close doors for that happening, but if you come in with, like, a collaborative, warm, empathic tone, like, you’ll increase the likelihood that you You do that.

[00:59:29] You’re able to get that done.

[00:59:30] LM: Is there anything else that you wish more people knew or understood about stress?

[00:59:34] JT: I think we really underestimate the power of being present in the moment and doing things that help us. See ourselves as capable and able, and we didn’t really touch on it, but I know this is something you talk tons about, but the benefits of social support feeling less alone is so helpful for our stress, and it is a huge stress buffer.

[00:59:51] And I talk a lot in the book about things we can do ahead of stressful events to kind of increase our bandwidth, almost like preventative medicine rather than just triage.

[00:59:58] LM: Is there a way to use our. [01:00:00] social

[01:00:00] JT: worlds as a buffer that you really like? Just having a sense of community and being present in relationships and being able to be vulnerable and be able to be helpful to other people.

[01:00:09] Giving back is such a huge way to

[01:00:10] LM: have more perspective. Can you leave us with just one homework assignment, something that everybody can do the second they turn off this podcast, that they’ll feel an immediate reduction in stress in their life?

[01:00:19] JT: Yes. Think about something that really matters to you that you have been avoiding and make an action plan of very workable, small, digestible steps.

[01:00:27] of how you will face that

[01:00:29] LM: thing. That’s so good. That’s such a good one. Oh, I feel less stressful even thinking about me doing that later. Yay, I’m so happy. Yeah, it’s amazing. Okay, can you tell us a little bit in your own words about your wonderful book?

[01:00:40] JT: My book is called Stress Resets. It is all about ways to soothe your body and mind in minutes.

[01:00:46] And these are all things that have personally transformed my life and have transformed the lives of my clients. They’re all rooted in research, and One of the impetuses for this book was like, I want people to have tools, even if they can’t necessarily [01:01:00] afford therapy, even if you’re in therapy, but can’t remember what you need the most in your hardest moments.

[01:01:05] And I want you to be able to access this for the price of a salad. And I love hearing from readers that these tools have helped them, and I can’t wait to hear how they’ve helped you.

[01:01:15] LM: Awesome.

[01:01:15] JT: Well, thank you so much. This was wonderful. Thank you, Liz. This was

[01:01:18] LM: awesome. I really appreciate like all your vulnerability and

[01:01:20] JT: willingness to share.

[01:01:21] LM: If you loved this episode, you will love the episode where I speak with Dr. Elissa Epel. She is one of the world’s leading stress researchers. She shares a stress relief hack that’s become a go to in my life. She shares advice for people in positions of caretaking, people dealing with other stressful times in their life, and so much more.

[01:01:39] I’ll link that episode for you in the show notes so you can go and listen. Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.