Heather Graham On Smashing The Hollywood Patriarchy, Becoming A Sex Symbol At 18, & Her Daily Wellness Routines

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[00:00:00] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody Podcast, where every week we’re sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Let’s dive in. You may think you know Heather Graham from her iconic roles in movies like Boogie Nights, Bowfinger, The Hangover, Austin Powers, The Spy Who Shagged Me, or the dozens of other films and TV shows that she’s been in.

[00:00:28] But I got to know a whole different side of Heather Graham in this conversation, and I was blown away. We get into the rampant misogyny in Hollywood. Heather actually shares her own awful encounter with Harvey Weinstein and how the stories that we tell and who we give the power to tell them shapes our view of who we can and should be as women in society.

[00:00:51] We get into very real talk about Aging and sex. Good news. Heather says that sex gets even better as you get older. So that’s Wonderful. We [00:01:00] talk about what it was like for her to break free from her abusive family and create her own chosen family Which she writes about in the beautiful film that she also directed called chosen family We get into being child free what it was really like on the set set of Sex and the City, which is a teeny, teeny, tiny role that she played.

[00:01:18] She played herself, but it was such a fun little cameo, and I had to hear some behind the scenes stories because I’m a huge Sex and the City fan. We get into the secret to her optimism and her mental health, her favorite wellness practices, and so much more. on this episode of the Liz Moody Podcast. I loved Heather so much and I cannot wait to hear what you think.

[00:01:40] I promise this conversation is going to be nothing like how you expect, so let’s just dive right in. One super quick note, I know that 50 percent of you listening to this episode do not follow the podcast. Take a second now to hit that follow or subscribe button. It is the best way to support the podcast and it makes sure [00:02:00] that episodes show up right in your feed.

[00:02:02] Go ahead, do it right now. I’ll wait. Trust me, you do not want to miss out on any of our upcoming shows. They are jam packed with science and stories that will change your life. Alright, let’s get right into the episode. Heather Graham, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:17] HG: Thank you for having me on your awesome podcast.

[00:02:19] LM: I’m so excited to have you here. I was telling you before we started recording that I’m just so impressed by you as a person. Like, you’re writing, you’re directing, you’re acting, and you’re also just I don’t know, you have this really joyful attitude you seem like you approach life with.

[00:02:33] HG: Yeah, I really feel like, you know, we’re just given this life, you might as well find a way to enjoy it.

[00:02:38] Were you always like that? I think I’ve always had a bit of an optimistic, happy personality, but no, I think when I was younger, I definitely wanted to be like, in movies like Sophie’s Choice. I only wanted to be in like, Holocaust movies or just wear black and be like, really serious. And like, I didn’t want to go to beaches on vacation.

[00:02:54] I wanted to just like, enjoy life. You know, I was really into my career, but now I think I see the value of just [00:03:00] enjoying life. When did that shift for

[00:03:02] LM: you?

[00:03:02] HG: I think it’s just when you’re going along your career and sometimes things work out and sometimes things don’t, you’re kind of on a roller coaster and I think you just realize I’m not in control of these things.

[00:03:11] And even if it’s my dream and I love it, I also just want to be happy regardless. So I don’t want to attach my happiness too much to my relationship or my career. It’s finding a peaceful place, a happy place inside of

[00:03:22] LM: you, like no matter what. I want that and I feel like I’m moving in that direction and sometimes I can really feel it.

[00:03:28] And then other times the validation from external sources is like, Oh, this is what I needed right now. And then when it’s not valid, I’m not saying I’ve totally

[00:03:36] HG: succeeded. It’s my goal. No, for sure. There’s moments where I don’t succeed, but you know, I meditate and that helps. I’ve been doing transcendental meditation for sure.

[00:03:43] There’s days where I am not succeeding and I I don’t feel, you know, whatever, bummed out or in a bad mood, but I do feel that sometimes I do succeed at it and I love those moments. I think in nature, nature really helps me feel connected to something where I don’t feel like my happiness is needing to get [00:04:00] all

[00:04:00] LM: these certain things to happen.

[00:04:01] Do you credit TM for being the thing that’s helped you the most in terms of mental health and finding peace? I think I’m like really into self help. So

[00:04:09] HG: I do a lot of stuff. Like I do yoga, I think having really good friends. I was listening to one of your podcasts about having a really good social friendship network.

[00:04:16] I have great friends, which is kind of what Chosen Family, the movie that I directed, is about. And just getting enough sleep. I’ve done so many different self help things like therapy and EMDR and craniosacral therapy. Like I will try

[00:04:27] LM: anything, basically. Has anything been helpful? particularly helpful.

[00:04:30] Like, do you love therapy? Do you love the EMDR? Do you love craniosacral? Of course I think therapy

[00:04:35] HG: is amazing. It’s just funny thinking of like past generations where they viewed therapy as like, Oh, if you go to therapy, you’re crazy. Now I feel like it’s just like, if you can afford it, why aren’t you going to therapy?

[00:04:43] You know, everyone should be going really. But I love craniosacral therapy. It’s helped me so much with my health. Like different chronic health issues I had have like been way lessened by

[00:04:53] LM: going. Interesting. For people who don’t know what that is, can you kind of explain what they do?

[00:04:57] HG: It’s kind of a massage of your nervous [00:05:00] system.

[00:05:00] Sometimes, you know, like I’ll find that I’m clenching my jaw or that my body feels out of alignment or I’ll feel really tense. And when you get cranial sacral therapy, like you relax to the point where you can sort of feel Feel like, oh, I’m doing this to myself, like I’m clenching these things. Or sometimes like repressed memories or trauma can come up and it feels like you’re just wrapped in a warm blanket while

[00:05:19] LM: you really just listen to yourself.

[00:05:21] Mm. And you mentioned that that’s been really helpful with chronic health issues that you’ve had. Would you be willing to share what any of those were? I’ve had, you know, sometimes got,

[00:05:29] HG: you know, UTIs basically, and I was in a lot of pain from them. And so getting the cranial cycle therapy has like dramatically reduced the amount that I get.

[00:05:38] Oh, that’s super cool. I wouldn’t

[00:05:39] LM: have even made the connection between those two things.

[00:05:42] HG: It’s funny because I was desperate. I literally went to every Western medicine doctor. I’d gone to acupuncture a lot, which is helpful as well, but it’s like ingrained patterns of tension in your body sometimes that cause irritation and inflammation.

[00:05:53] And so for me, I can feel it. Whenever I get stressed, I start, like, clenching my hip and my jaw. And, like, in cranial sacral therapy, they teach you that your [00:06:00] jaw and your hip are almost connected. It’s very similar, because if you think about the bone structure,

[00:06:05] LM: it’s all connected, basically. Oh, that’s so interesting.

[00:06:07] And what started the interest in healing and self help? Was that kind of leaving the religious background that you were raised in? Or Yeah,

[00:06:15] HG: I think I was unhappy, because looking back on my childhood It’s funny, because when you grow up in a family, you don’t really realize that your family’s kind of not normal, right?

[00:06:24] You just think, Oh, everyone’s family is like this and something’s wrong with me. So my father was, you know, he was abusive and he would also use God as a weapon. He was sort of one of those people that would act like he was perfect and everyone else is doing all these things wrong and you’re going to go to hell.

[00:06:39] That was like the thing he would say. If we watched R rated movies or if we dressed too sexy, you’re going to hell. And he would always say like, Oh, I should have sent you to a convent. And we did have in my Irish Catholic family,

[00:06:51] LM: we did have some priests and nuns. In our family. And how did you make the decision that that wasn’t the life path for you?

[00:06:58] Because a lot of people just, [00:07:00] you know, learn from their parents and then they’re like, okay, I don’t know any other way.

[00:07:03] HG: When I started acting, I remember my father was like scandalized. It’s kind of this like attitude of like, well, extreme violence. That’s okay to watch that. But if you watch anything sexual, like that’s completely evil.

[00:07:13] And so I had to just develop my own attitude. It’s hard when you’re a young person, an actress, let’s say you’re 19, to not play any roles that have anything to do with sexuality as a woman, especially in the business as it was when I started. I remember I got offered a few things that had, like, sexual content or involved nudity.

[00:07:31] In the beginning, I turned them down because I thought, oh, I shouldn’t be doing this stuff. And then I just thought, I want to be an actress. I want to be in good things. And I just decided to just go for it. And those were the roles that I was being offered as well. So it was a way for me to just decide, I think this is okay.

[00:07:45] You know, my family might think this is bad and some people can think it’s bad, that’s fine, but I can decide. That for me, that I think this is fine. Like I don’t judge other people when they’re in a movie and they do a sex scene. I’m like, that’s cool. That’s your art. Do what you need to do. And it’s kind of just detaching from the way [00:08:00] that your family thinks and deciding what you think.

[00:08:02] Do they watch your movies? We’re estranged. I remember when I was in Boogie Nights, my father did send me a letter and he said, I know that Hollywood slash Satan has claimed your immortal soul, but there’s still time for you to repent. Call Father Peter on his cell phone. So it was always like, you’re about to go to hell.

[00:08:17] Yeah. Yeah. Call the priest and go to confession. That’s wild. That’s wild. And I used to get, he used to send me, like, a subscription to, like, Catholic Daughters Return to the Faith, which I actually put in Chosen Family, the scene where the dad gives her this, like, Catholic Daughters Return to the Faith flyer, and, no, I used to get that subscription.

[00:08:35] LM: Well, it’s so interesting, because your first movie, Half Magic, has a lot of sexual content in it, and it strikes me as this really interesting journey that you’ve taken over your life, which was almost like Here’s what my parents thought that my sexuality could be and then you acted in all these movies that was like here’s what the male gaze thinks my sexuality should or could be and then you finally get to write and direct your own movie And then you’re like, here’s what [00:09:00] I believe my sexuality can be

[00:09:01] HG: Well, it’s like how do we as women in society find what feels good to us in terms of our sexuality?

[00:09:06] I feel like we’re given these messages like oh you should be sexy or else we’re gonna Judge you. And then it’s like, Oh, now you’re too sexy, right? So it’s like, what’s the window of sexuality where you’re not being judged harshly? And then what about your personality? Maybe some people love to express their sexuality and they want to dress sexy.

[00:09:21] And some people don’t want to do that. As women, we can reclaim our own sexuality without looking at how am I being judged for this? You know, but it’s hard because in the business, if you look at, which I think is so cool, this whole Pamela Anderson evolution where people are looking at her and going, you know, she was really unfairly judged and she’s really cool and why was she so harshly judged because of the sex tape, which was stolen out of her house, you know?

[00:09:43] So I think that luckily we’re evolving enough to be like, women should be allowed to have their sexuality the same way that men are, you know, men aren’t judged because they did a sex tape with their partner. Why should she be harshly judged because she’s beautiful and wanted to do a sex tape with her husband?

[00:09:56] LM: And especially it was not done. Meant for public consumption. Was it [00:10:00] hard to figure out your own relationship with your sexuality coming from your dad’s telling you these things, but then you did play a lot of roles that were famously like what a man thinks the hottest woman in the world is?

[00:10:12] HG: It’s weird because how I felt about myself was that I was Renee Wigger and Bridged Jones diary.

[00:10:17] I always felt like I’m a normal woman that’s kind of shy and insecure and, but then I guess I was being viewed as like a different type of woman. That wasn’t what I felt like. I grew up in school, I was smart, I was nerdy, I wasn’t considered attractive until I started acting in movies, so to be like, seen as this person, which wasn’t really what I felt like inside, I mean, honestly, it was fun in certain ways, because I’m like, this is nice feedback in some ways, but then I also felt like, well, people don’t really see me for who I am.

[00:10:43] And then it was sometimes frustrating, because I would go up for roles where I was like, I’m so right for this, but then people wouldn’t really see that part of me, because they would judge me based on the other roles I had done or how I looked. So, um, yeah. Was there a point where you were like, I am the hot girl?

[00:10:56] Well, yeah, I just decide, look, at the end of the day, I think as women, [00:11:00] we should just all decide that we’re hot. I think in the past, sometimes people would be like, Oh, well, you’re the hot girl. And then there’s a smart girl. And then there’s, and it’s just like, no, I’m both, you know what I mean? So it’s kind of like owning that I can be all these different things.

[00:11:11] And of course I want to enjoy my femininity. I want to enjoy my sexuality. I want to

[00:11:15] LM: feel good about it. I also think, I’ve heard you talk about how the stories that we tell really influence the way that we view ourselves and what we view as possible and you want to write roles that kind of allow women to view what’s possible for them differently and view themselves differently.

[00:11:30] I’m curious, of all the roles that you’ve done, are there roles where you’re like, This isn’t even realistic, and are there roles where you’re like, this is what I want people to see a woman can be like?

[00:11:44] HG: You can do a lot of roles, but sometimes people don’t watch everything you do, so you kind of become known for the really successful things that you’re in.

[00:11:51] But I mean, I look at someone like Reese Witherspoon or Margot Robbie and I just go, they are such badasses. Like, I would like to have my own production company and just make these really [00:12:00] amazing female driven content stories. She filled a niche like Reese Witherspoon where there wasn’t like, if you watch Big Little Lies, you’re like, oh yeah, where are those like women in their forties and fifties and hear these cool stories.

[00:12:11] It’s like women deciding what we want to watch and not just only men telling us what we want to

[00:12:16] LM: watch. A hundred percent. Are there roles where, as a woman written by a man, you’ve been like, a woman would never, you know, Do this. I mean, sure,

[00:12:25] HG: yes. But when I was coming up, I didn’t have like the power, you know, to be like, a woman would never do this.

[00:12:30] I’d be like, thank God I have this job. You’re just like, I need to make money because I looked at my mother and I thought that it seemed like she was in a bad situation because I thought my dad is this super religious abusive guy and she’s stuck with him because she doesn’t have a job. So when I saw that scenario, I just thought, I don’t want that.

[00:12:46] So how do I make money? So I didn’t even care if the roles I was in were, you know, not realistic to him. Cause I’m like, how do I become self supporting so that I don’t need to stay married to a guy who’s got serious issues and then blames everyone else for them. [00:13:00]

[00:13:00] LM: And I do love, you mentioned these like roles of like women in their forties and their fifties and like, and just like that, I love watching that because you’re watching.

[00:13:08] Women who aren’t just out there to find a life partner, they’re talking about other things that they’re interested and they’re excited about other things that they’re interested.

[00:13:16] HG: Yeah. Earlier, I mean, of course there’s exceptions, but a lot of movies for women were like, oh, you find the right guy and then you get married and then that’s the end of the story.

[00:13:22] And now I feel like with these more female creators and just, Hopefully we’re evolving that it’s stories about women in our lives and just like enjoying our lives. You don’t have to end up with just one specific guy to be happy, which is something I loved about a sex in the city because they all had different relationships, but it was about their friendships and just how they enjoy their lives.

[00:13:39] LM: Can we talk about your sex in the city cameo? Sure. It’s so good. It’s so iconic. It’s like the briefest role that you’ve probably ever done, but it is such an iconic role. So to set up the scene, I might get this wrong, but I’ve watched every episode like 50 times. But to set up the scene, basically Carrie has been cheating with Big on Natasha.

[00:13:57] So Natasha and Big are married. Carrie’s been having an [00:14:00] affair with Big. And then Natasha’s friends with the Booker and SNL, I want to say. And it’s because she hurt Aiden, right? Yeah. Oh, wait, no, no. Yeah. Because she hurt Aiden.

[00:14:09] HG: My friend, Nadia Dajani, she played the face. So she goes, Oh, you’re the one who dated Aiden.

[00:14:13] And she looks at her like, Oh, like you’re horrible,

[00:14:15] LM: right? You hurt him so badly. So your job is essentially to come in as Heather Graham. And I think you’re at the farmer’s market. Yeah, we were at the farmer’s market. You’re at the farmer’s market. And you’re like, basically make this face judging Carrie.

[00:14:25] Judging

[00:14:25] HG: for being a bad girlfriend, basically. How did

[00:14:27] LM: that come about? Because you are playing yourself. Were they like, we need Heather Graham in this role?

[00:14:31] HG: Well, I was obsessed with Sex and the City. I’m friends with Molly Shannon. I remember I’ve been friends with her a long time. When that show was on, we’d be like running home, like we can’t miss a moment of the show.

[00:14:39] But I’m friends with Nadia Dajani and she was friends with Michael Patrick King and some of the writers like Liz DiCillo. And they’re like, do you want to do a cameo? So I acted with my friend Nadia. And I remember I was so obsessed with Sarah Jessica Parker and all of them, obviously. But I was wearing high heels and I just said to her, how do you wear these high heels every day?

[00:14:56] I find high heels so hard. So uncomfortable, like, aren’t your feet killing? And [00:15:00] she was like sweet and laughing. And then she sent me a gift certificate to go to Happy Feet, the foot massage place in her neighborhood. And

[00:15:07] LM: I always remembered that like, that’s so

[00:15:08] HG: generous. Oh my God,

[00:15:09] LM: that’s so nice. What was the vibe on set?

[00:15:11] I’m just the biggest X in the city fan in the world, so, well, she

[00:15:13] HG: was pregnant at the time, so she was kind of in that stage where she was hiding her stomach by holding like a purse in front of it. And then Willie Garson, I was friends with Willie Garson too, he was my neighbor for a while and sadly he died.

[00:15:25] But the vibe was just fun. And then of course you have Patricia Fields, right, and she’s like dressing you and you’re just like, oh my god. Did

[00:15:30] LM: you say to her, like, I want this kind of outfit, or are you just like, whatever you do to me.

[00:15:34] HG: I was just kind of like, I’m just excited. And then she let me keep it. I still have it actually.

[00:15:37] I still have the top and the jeans. Oh my god, that’s iconic. That’s so cool. And the

[00:15:41] LM: high heels as well, I have the entire outfit still. Okay, so I’m curious, the storyline is about, um, Essentially judging somebody for cheating. Right. What are your thoughts on cheating? Would you judge somebody for cheating?

[00:15:51] Would you stand behind a friend if she was cheating on her partner?

[00:15:55] HG: Everyone makes their own decisions. I think it’s not good, obviously. I think it’s better to live with integrity and [00:16:00] honesty, you know. I think it’s bad, yes. But given different circumstances, you know, if someone was my friend and they were cheating, I would just try to be there for them to help them through whatever journey they were going through.

[00:16:10] If some of my friend got cheated on, I’d be like, that sucks, you know. Do you think it’s a deal breaker? I think it can be a deal breaker. I mean, I think if someone’s consistently cheating, yes, it’s a deal breaker. I think it depends on every situation. And I think I wouldn’t judge people, like, if they’re like, I want to stay, if you want to break up.

[00:16:26] I don’t know. What do you think?

[00:16:27] LM: I think it’s so complicated. I was raised with a lot of people very close to me in my life who did cheat. And, um, I think it gave me a real compassion for the gray areas of life. Um, I have never cheated or have been cheated on, but I am the person that a lot of my friends come to if they have cheated and I think we’re whole people and whole people are really complicated.

[00:16:50] HG: I mean, I think for me, consistent cheating would be a deal breaker. That said, I mean, yeah, there’s a gray area and I think everyone needs to make their own choices. And I have some friends that are in open relationships where they [00:17:00] both Go out with other people, and I think honesty is better. Like, if you’re going to both decide to have sex with other people, I think it’s way better if you’re honest about it.

[00:17:08] LM: Have you ever cheated or been cheated on?

[00:17:10] HG: I have cheated, and I have been cheated on, but really not very much. Luckily, in my life, probably only like two or three times. No, it’s horrible. I think it’s horrible, basically. It can be very painful.

[00:17:21] LM: How has it been? Like be naked on camera over the years.

[00:17:27] HG: I mean, I think the first time I did it I was really nervous about it.

[00:17:30] And of course, I think as a woman even if you go, okay People seem to think I’m attractive. I still feel like oh my god, but they’re gonna see these flaws I think stories about sexuality are important to tell and because I went through such an important journey with sexuality I like seeing movies about sexuality and I think it’s important for us to learn about it as a culture and as women and just to be able to talk about it and not have it be this taboo.

[00:17:52] Because when I grew up, it was like a taboo. Like, don’t ever talk about sex and da, da, da, da. And I feel like it’s more healthy to just be open about it. Like we all have it. We all have [00:18:00] our sexuality and learning to just embrace who you are within reason.

[00:18:04] LM: How has your relationship with sexuality evolved over time?

[00:18:07] HG: Well, I think my father was really screwed up and had a lot of issues, and I think I took them on when he would try to blame me for his own problems. And so it was like detaching from the negative message I was getting, mainly from him, and just deciding that whatever felt good to me that, you know, through therapy and through different things that I did.

[00:18:26] I go to Al Anon, which is a 12 step group. I don’t drink or do drugs, but it’s basically like having people in your life that do and sort of not being too codependent with them. So when I was growing up, my sister would sometimes drink a bit out of control and realizing how to take care of yourself and think about yourself and not be overly worried about everyone else around you.

[00:18:46] Because I think I was taught, like, if you don’t put everyone else before you, then you’re terrible person, kind of like this whole martyr female stereotype, you need to put everyone else first and then you’re a good person. And I kind of like learned the reverse is true, that if you [00:19:00] actually really take good care of yourself, prioritize yourself, and then give from your overflow, that it makes you a much more loving, less

[00:19:06] LM: resentful person.

[00:19:07] I love that. I also love that in the context of sexuality because I think a lot of women feel like, The sex is about pleasing the man and making sure the man has this orgasm, which is very clear whether it’s had or I was in my 20s. And then

[00:19:21] HG: I felt like when I got into like my 30s, I think that’s when a lot of women have like a sexual awakening.

[00:19:27] And I thought, oh, this can actually feel better for me. I think I just kind of faked it a bit when I was younger because I wasn’t really brought up to prioritize myself, my wants, my needs, my own pleasure. So when I became older, I thought, oh, this can actually be for me, you know? And it’s pretty amazing.

[00:19:41] What about in your 40s and then you’re in your 50s now? Same. I mean, once you do that, you can never go back. It’s just like the concept of boundaries and asking for what you want. I feel like it’s hard to start when you originally start doing it, like, this feels horrible to like ask for what I want or say, no, I don’t want this.

[00:19:55] But then once you start doing it, like, this feels so good, I can’t go back to how I was before.

[00:19:59] LM: Oh, I love [00:20:00] that. So do we have things to look forward to in my sex life in my 40s and my 50s? You learn your body more and

[00:20:05] HG: what you like and I think that for me I learned that I like being with one person that I have like, uh, connection with.

[00:20:12] I’ve had moments where, you know, I dated different people or whatever, but I like being in a relationship because it feels more loving and feels more connected and

[00:20:21] LM: that makes the sex, I think, better. I completely agree. My husband and I have been together for 15 or 16 years and people are always like, Oh, the sex gets worse the longer you’re together.

[00:20:30] Of course, you’re having boring sex. And I’m like, no, our sex is better than it has ever been because we’ve built so many more communication skills and so much more comfort.

[00:20:39] HG: Yes. And I mean, I’ve gone to couples counseling before. Sometimes I think that helps to finding like a healthy way to communicate how you feel.

[00:20:46] I think the sexual connection is connected to the emotional connection. So if you can really talk to somebody, then it feels like you can have better sex.

[00:20:53] LM: How has How has aging been for you as an experience? It’s something that I struggle with.

[00:20:59] HG: There’s an [00:21:00] aspect that’s totally terrifying and then it’s weird because on one hand, you know, you do notice like, oh, certain things are changing and this is weird.

[00:21:07] But honestly, I’ve never met a woman that felt 100 percent good about herself all the time, right? Like my best friend and I were talking about when we were 21, we’d find a flaw. Do you know what I mean? Whatever age I am, I find some flaw and then can obsess on it or you can just decide not to, right? I have a friend who goes, you’re only going to get older, so enjoy where you are today.

[00:21:24] My friend and I were looking at this picture of us in our 20s. We met in high school and we were just like, why do we like, think we look bad then? You know? Oh my

[00:21:31] LM: God. If I could shake every version of me who critiqued these pictures in the past, I’m like, you looked gorgeous. And I try to remind myself that me in 20 years will want to be shaking the me now who’s critiquing my friend says.

[00:21:44] And look, I have moments

[00:21:45] HG: where I’m like, this is so freaky. Like, what do I do? I’ve never gotten plastic surgery, but I understand why people get it, because it’s freaky, like your body is changing your face, but I think that I’m happier. Before, when I was younger, I was very hard on myself. I had some self [00:22:00] hatred.

[00:22:00] I spoke very meanly to myself inside my head. I’m much nicer to myself now. I feel more detached from what people think of me. Of course, there’s a part of me that cares, but I feel more like, well, whatever, this is what I am. And I weirdly feel happier and less affected by ups and downs. Was there a moment that you felt like the roles you were being offered were shifting at all?

[00:22:20] I mean, to be totally honest, I feel lucky that I even still work. I’ve been working since I was like 16 and supporting myself as an actor. So I feel just excited to be working. And I know I love watching actresses older than me. Like if I see Susan Sarandon, I’m like, how does she stay sexy? She still seems sexy or like Helen Mirren or like Allison Janney.

[00:22:40] I feel like as women in our culture, it’s really inspiring to get to see women of all ages, especially older women. Honored and their work be important because there’s so many older men whose work is honored and important. Yeah. So I feel like that’s still a shift that we could shift more is just like, how do we tell these stories of women of different ages, especially older, because I feel like that has been a little bit stifled.

[00:22:59] But I mean, of course [00:23:00] there’s people like Meryl Streep where she’s always working and doing cool stuff, but I think it’s just like as women just deciding as we get older that we’re fabulous.

[00:23:10] LM: Yes, yes, I want to do that. Like, I really, I do want to decide I’m fabulous, but it’s sometimes I find it hard when I’m looking at my face on camera day after day, or so many people in my industry are 10, 15 years younger than me.

[00:23:23] And it’s like, there’s the You look really young to me. But even, okay, so I just said, thank you. Yeah. Why should I say thank you to that? Like, why is that a compliment? You’re right, you’re right, you’re right. And it’s just It’s so interesting that that’s like

[00:23:35] HG: one of the peak

[00:23:35] LM: compliments.

[00:23:35] HG: It’s because the patriarchy, basically, has told us as women, like, right as we become our most empowered, most intelligent, most wise, oh, now you’re supposed to feel bad about yourself, but we can feel good when we’re whatever this age, but you’re supposed to feel bad, you know?

[00:23:46] Yeah, a

[00:23:47] LM: hundred percent. And I know how I can fight that internally, and I fight that in the conversations with my girlfriends, but then it’s like, when you’re faced with five hundred to a thousand messages on a daily basis, subtle and overt, it feels really hard. And I’m impressed [00:24:00] that, like, you’ve been able to.

[00:24:01] Stay away from getting plastic surgery because it feels like so many people in Hollywood get it because it’s available, it’s easy, and it can just solve that problem in a poof.

[00:24:09] HG: I think it’s really about self esteem. Honestly, I struggle with it, too. You know, I freak out about aging, too, but I always just come back to like, look, I’m alive.

[00:24:17] What’s the other option? You’re dead, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I think surrounding yourself with more loving people that tell you you look great. Yeah. Because there’s always going to be somebody out there either. I’m telling you that you’re bad in some way. I have this affirmation that I do. I do a bunch of affirmations every day, and one of them is the loving voices are the ones I listen to.

[00:24:35] So like you can hear voices, but the loving voices are the ones I listen to. And then I have these affirmations like, this is the best time of my life, and I’m so beautiful and sexy and blah, blah, blah. I just tell myself that every day. It’s like waiting for someone else to tell me. I just tell myself, it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, like I’m telling myself everything I want to hear in my

[00:24:53] LM: affirmations.

[00:24:54] When you wrote your movie that sort of explored sexuality. What did you want to portray about [00:25:00] sexuality that you felt wasn’t in the movies that came before it?

[00:25:03] HG: I just wanted to show my journey and thinking if this was helpful, like for any other person or woman, just this idea of feeling bad about your own sexuality.

[00:25:12] for whatever reason, and then learning how to feel good about it, because I grew up very religious and the idea I got was that like, sexuality is bad. And what I learned was that sexuality is a spiritual part, like if you believe in God or some sort of like spirituality that God created our bodies, God created our sexuality, we can feel good about that as part of just being alive, you know, that it is spiritual, our sexuality is spiritual.

[00:25:33] Do you have a sex tip for anybody? I think for women, foreplay is important. It’s better if the guy caters to you. Because I think if you make it about the guy, the guy is so easily turned on and it can be very quick, right? But as a woman, I think it’s good to ask for what you want and to really make sure that you’re really ready to have sex before you start having sex because that’s when you enjoy it the most, you know?

[00:25:56] Because I think when I was younger, I’d be like, well, let me just try to do what I think [00:26:00] is sexy and I’ll just moan even though I don’t even feel that good to try to make the guy feel better. I was like, what about the guy’s ego? I need to try to make him feel better. And now it’s being patient. Somebody gave me this like analogy.

[00:26:09] A woman is a slowly boiling pot of water. It can take you like 20 or 30 minutes to get like warmed up. Whereas a guy is just like a pistol. He’s ready to go immediately. So the guy’s got to kind of, from my point of view, accommodate that

[00:26:20] LM: woman’s slower turn on a hundred percent. I think there’s a statistic that like women take on average.

[00:26:26] 20 to 30 minutes to orgasm and then movies are like it’s one to two minutes and it’s a simultaneous climax and it does mess with people because then the women out there who are taking 20 minutes to orgasm are like Oh, what’s wrong with me? I have to hurry it up I don’t want him to think something’s wrong with him because it’s taking me 20 minutes I mean sometimes it

[00:26:43] HG: takes me 20 minutes to even be ready to have sex Let alone be orgamized, but hopefully with the partner you’re with you need to devote some time to it You can’t just be like here I have five minutes and then I hope it’s the best sex of my life You have to be willing to put some time into it

[00:26:56] LM: Both of the movies that you’ve written and directed are really odes to [00:27:00] friendship.

[00:27:00] I would love for you to speak a little bit to the role that friendship has played in your life.

[00:27:04] HG: Yeah, my family has some good qualities, but I found them to really contribute to teaching me how to hate myself. And basically, my friends have taught me how to love myself. Sometimes you feel alone. You need somebody to reflect back to you.

[00:27:17] Like, you’re great, or this is normal. Like, it’s not normal, some of the things that happened to me as a kid. Sometimes you just need that model of like, this is stable. This is loving. This is normal. And actually my friend who produced Chosen Family, his name’s Michael Nichols, his family’s staying with me right now.

[00:27:32] And I based some of the characters on him, the couple with the daughter, and the daughter is actually really their daughter. But they’ve been like a really stable influence. I met him when I was 17. Him and this girl that I met in high school, Allison and her family, I kind of loosely based the characters on them because they taught me about love, I think, and loving myself.

[00:27:50] And I think I had to learn how to unconditionally love myself because I wasn’t taught that.

[00:27:53] LM: Mm. That’s lovely.

[00:27:55] HG: Yeah.

[00:27:55] LM: What other friends have played a long term positive role in your life? Who is [00:28:00] your chosen family?

[00:28:00] HG: Right now I have this little girl gang called The Committee and we all just like talk about our lives.

[00:28:05] So my friend Nina Bergman, she is an actress and a singer and a model and she is just one of the most emotionally intelligent people I’ve ever met. showrunner of Ginny in Georgia and so she’s got this cool female voice and she writes for women. And then my friend Liz. playing. She’s a feminist activist and she’s really funny and they’re really great.

[00:28:27] They always kind of up my spirits.

[00:28:31] LM: Something that I hear a lot from listeners is how tricky it is to navigate friendship as you get older and certain people get married and have babies and you’ve chosen to not get married and to not have children. How has that impacted your friendships over the years?

[00:28:45] HG: Well, I’m an auntie to my best friend’s kids, which is really fun because you get kids in your life till having independence. But yeah, it’s interesting the road I went down because I had a therapist and she said, well, look, if you end up without kids, then God sends you people to [00:29:00] nurture. So to be honest, I was never the person that was like, I have to have kids because there’s some women where they’re like, this is my purpose.

[00:29:06] This is my goal. I need it. For me, I was always like in the right circumstances, I would do it, but it never happened. So, I mean, not to say, I guess I could still adopt a kid or something. But I guess it wasn’t part of my

[00:29:16] LM: journey. What are your feelings about that? It’s interesting because it’s so different than somebody who’s steadfastly like, I’m child free by choice.

[00:29:23] I definitely don’t want kids to be like, that is a whole road my life could have gone down, but it didn’t.

[00:29:28] HG: Well, my friend Liz Plank was doing a podcast about freezing her eggs and it’s great for those younger generations. You guys have this option to like, I’m freezing my eggs, but I try to just trust, I’d say like higher power.

[00:29:39] Like if I was meant to have a kid, I would have had a kid or if I have somehow meant to have a kid in the future. The life that’s happening to me is the life that’s meant. be happening, but I do think the culture sometimes judges women like, Oh, you’re not as much of a woman if you don’t have kids or you’re not as nice of a person or your life isn’t as meaningful.

[00:29:55] But I don’t think they do that to men. I don’t think if a man doesn’t have kids, you’re not like, Oh my God, are [00:30:00] you okay? So I think it’s just like detaching from all this kind of sexist, patriarchal messaging that really judges women harshly and doesn’t allow us to each be unique. Like I think it is wonderful that some people have children and they’re amazing moms and dads.

[00:30:13] It’s also wonderful, like, I watched Chelsea Handler stand up about, like, how she’s so glad she doesn’t have any kids. So I think all perspectives are valuable and that women should be able to choose and not feel bad if they don’t want to have a kid.

[00:30:25] LM: Was that period in, like, your 30s and 40s when your friends were having kids, was that tough on friendship?

[00:30:30] Or were you able to navigate that easily?

[00:30:32] HG: I grew up in, like, big cities, so I had a lot of friends that didn’t have kids until they were in their 40s. I always thought it was so fun when my friends had kids, because I could, like, live vicariously without the responsibility, and I love babies, and holding babies, and I love being auntie, and I’m super close with both of my best friend’s kids.

[00:30:48] Like, I really love them, but some people that have kids definitely get busy, and they get into their world of children’s parents. So, there’s some friends that I kind of like. I’m not as close with, but other friends I became closer with because [00:31:00] I became part of their kids lives.

[00:31:01] LM: Oh, I love that. And chosen family.

[00:31:03] It’s like you’re the auntie.

[00:31:04] HG: Yes. I love that. And I just went on a trip to Spain with my best friends and their kids, the friends that I based the chosen family friends on. What about marriage? What’s your vibe on marriage? It’s so interesting because a friend of mine just sent me this TED talk and it basically said that the most happy people are single women and married men.

[00:31:22] And it was like saying that married women are doing unpaid work basically and that men are let to do more things but women are basically trying to work and do all this housework. The study, it was a really interesting TED talk about how sometimes women get the short end of the stick when they’re married because they’re supposed to now put everyone in front of them.

[00:31:38] Yeah. So I feel like the freedom of not being married unless I think if I was with someone for a long time and it just felt like a romantic thing to do I would do it, but I don’t feel like it’s a life goal. I think it’s romantic. I think it’s cool. I’m happy for my friends. I’ve gone to a bunch of weddings, but I don’t feel like, oh, my life is without meaning.

[00:31:55] I think I look at my mother and I feel like it looks like she’s imprisoned by that [00:32:00] relationship. I’m like, why did she stay? Why didn’t she leave him? But they think they’re amazing because they’re religious and they’re like, we never get divorces. So I didn’t have a good model of a relationship to look at growing up.

[00:32:10] So I think I just thought this looks bad.

[00:32:11] LM: Yeah. It’s so interesting. I did this. therapy program thing, and they talk about patterns in it, and they’re kind of like, what we do is either in reaction to our parents, or it’s kind of modeling after our parents. And at first I was like, both my parents are therapists, and I hate when like, everything comes back to your childhood or whatever.

[00:32:29] But they were like, well, where do you think you learned stuff? Like, you came out without, you know, these things. And then like, where do you think you learned the things that you learned? And you’re saying that your parents model, in reaction to it, you were like, I don’t want that. And I never had parents who had good marriages.

[00:32:43] And I was like, I’m gonna make like a great marriage in response to that. And it’s so interesting how, you know, Similar situations can beget such different narratives.

[00:32:51] HG: But I think it’s also like what life, like I think if I had met maybe the perfect partner, whatever, I maybe would be married. You know, I’m not like against it.

[00:32:59] I think I [00:33:00] wasn’t as eager to get married as definitely a lot of my friends.

[00:33:02] LM: What does the happy ending feel like to you? Because you write movies now, so you have to think about like what does a happy ending mean? And you have all these stories of what a lot of people have said a happy ending is.

[00:33:12] HG: Well, I think it’s what we were talking about earlier, which is finding that place inside yourself where you feel good About just being alive.

[00:33:18] Just you feel good about yourself. You have people around you that you care about ideally. Also, I think a great happy ending is just going through some growth and coming to the other side and learning something interesting and Becoming more wise and just learning how to appreciate your life more and be grateful.

[00:33:34] What have been big growth moments in your life? I feel like I’m still growing a lot. Well, I did the 12 steps in Al Anon and I really learned a lot through that.

[00:33:41] LM: Yeah, I love that. Also, it seems like you faced Trauma and used it as impetus for growth like you had your childhood and you were like, okay, that’s not what I want I’m gonna figure out what I want.

[00:33:52] You famously have had a number of sort of me too moments in Hollywood You had your experience with Harvey Weinstein and you were like, [00:34:00] okay, that’s not what I want I need to write my own roles and create these own characters. I think that’s such a fascinating thing because a lot of people Experience trauma and really curl up into themselves

[00:34:11] HG: Yeah.

[00:34:12] I don’t know if you’ve ever read Louise Hay, You Can Heal Your Life. She’s amazing. It’s about reframing. Because at the end of the day, whatever someone does to you doesn’t matter as much as how you feel about yourself. So if someone treats you badly, but you still approve of yourself, then you feel good.

[00:34:27] Somebody said this really smart thing. Somebody does something to you once and then you do it to yourself a thousand times, right? So if somebody treats you badly, abuses you, and then you self abuse by saying a bunch of mean stuff to yourself or hating yourself, but then if you go, okay, that thing happened, then It sucks.

[00:34:41] I seek help. I let it go. And now I think I’m amazing. Then you’re kind of free. Right? It’s like the best revenge is living well. Yeah. And like having a good life. Oh my God. And like detaching from what other people think about you. Do you feel like Hollywood

[00:34:53] LM: is better now?

[00:34:55] HG: I think that there’s an awareness that there’s a problem and it’s exciting to see movies like [00:35:00] Barbie do really well at the box office because I don’t remember seeing any feminist movies like that when I was younger.

[00:35:04] Coming up, but I don’t think that it’s resolved. No, I think the problem still exists And I’ll tell you that exists because when I am behind the scenes making movies as a director People won’t finance movies unless mostly you have a super famous man because they grade everyone on like how much your movies make and it’s Mainly men on these action movies that make a lot of money Of course, there’s some women but it’s more men and that’s how movies get made because male actors sign on to them mostly

[00:35:28] LM: So, how did you get your movies made?

[00:35:29] HG: Well, I got less money, but it was because Julia Stiles signed on. So the two of us. But we had to have a smaller budget because they were like, you need a more famous man. If your movie’s about women and it’s more about a female story, they’re like, you need the biggest star in Hollywood to be in the lowest budget movie that we can make.

[00:35:46] LM: Yeah. So actually, how do you know Julia? Or was it just that? You pictured her in the role.

[00:35:50] HG: I mean, I’d met her. We had mutual friends and she’s like a political activist and I’ve seen her, you know, at parties and stuff. But she liked the script, which was so cool. She empowered me. She’s also just [00:36:00] directed a movie.

[00:36:00] She’s just a very intelligent, super talented woman. And I think her and also Andrea Savage, they’re both making their own content. They’re directors. I think they wanted to support another female. Storyteller and my friend Odessa Ray who’s also in the movie. She produced that documentary Navalny. So she’s making amazing documentaries It’s super

[00:36:19] LM: inspiring.

[00:36:21] Do you think that we should be separating the art from the artists? Like do you think that we can watch Harvey Weinstein movies and feel okay? Do you think that we can watch Woody Allen movies and enjoy that experience at this point? Do you think the art live separately from the person who is behind the art as

[00:36:38] HG: a

[00:36:38] LM: person

[00:36:38] HG: who’s been traumatized?

[00:36:39] I would say no, like I would like to see Woody Allen never make another movie.

[00:36:43] LM: But like, can you, would you say people shouldn’t be enjoying Midnight in Paris or Vicky Cristina Barcelona because of the person that he is?

[00:36:52] HG: I don’t think he should be allowed to make any more movies, no. I don’t think if you’re like a pedophile child abuser that you should be allowed to be honored at all these different events [00:37:00] and acted like you’re some sort of god.

[00:37:01] I think you could say he’s very talented and these movies that he’s already made, definitely he’s made some good movies. I don’t think we should continue to venerate or honor somebody that is a perpetrator and a criminal. Do

[00:37:13] LM: you feel like that about Harvey Weinstein movies? Like, do you feel like we can’t retroactively you can’t go back into your past and be like,

[00:37:18] HG: Oh, I didn’t enjoy, like, Shakespeare in Love or The English Patient.

[00:37:21] Of course I did, you know? And they hold a spot of my memory of movies that I liked, you know? And he definitely made some movies with cool female roles. But I think that these type of men should stop getting away with what they’re getting away with. And stop being honored. And you can be like, well, somehow this good movie got made, but he’s horrible.

[00:37:37] I like that suddenly people are being held accountable. I know that sometimes there’s a backlash, but in the past, powerful men got away with just being super horrible and abusive. And now I feel like it’s like, no, you have to be accountable. So I personally think it’s great.

[00:37:50] LM: So your story with Harvey Weinstein is that, like, you went into his office, right?

[00:37:54] And he, like, had all these scripts on the table and he was kind of like, You can make any movie you want if you have sex with me. [00:38:00] Is that correct? Yeah, he didn’t,

[00:38:00] HG: he

[00:38:00] LM: wasn’t that straightforward.

[00:38:02] HG: Basically, he called me into his office. He was like, you’re so talented. You’re so funny and a good actress and choose one of these scripts.

[00:38:08] Let’s make it. And you know, when I’m out of town, my wife, I can do whatever I want, you know, and then he hugged me and he’s like, let me call you when I’m in LA. And I was trying to figure out how to deal with this. I was like, is there any way I can just keep this on like a business level? So I called this other actress and we were like, let’s just have dinner with him in a restaurant.

[00:38:24] She called me. I was like, I can’t go. I have to cancel. And he called me. He’s like, Well, this actress is in my hotel room, so come up to my hotel room and we’re all here having dinner. And she just called me and canceled, so I knew she wasn’t there, right? So I was just like, Oh, you know what? I have to get up early.

[00:38:36] I have to cancel. And I mean, it was a Hollywood kind of, you know, gossipy story that something had happened to Rose McGowan. It wasn’t that she had been raped. I don’t remember hearing that, but it was that he had attacked her or that she was upset that she went to his room and he had tried to attack her.

[00:38:52] That was in the Hollywood community. It was her, so I just thought, I can’t do it. And then he never worked with me again.

[00:38:57] LM: It’s cr I mean, it is like, it’s so [00:39:00] interesting to be like, could my career have gone this different way, but also awful. It’s so interesting to see the road not taken, and to see the accolades so many actors have gotten who didn’t make it.

[00:39:13] What are your feelings about that?

[00:39:15] HG: Sarah Polley wrote a really good article where I think he did it to her too and she didn’t do it. And I think she was like, I wonder what would have happened with my career if I would have done it. You know, it’s like hard to know. Like, would it have been just like a fake thing where he said he was going to do something and then he didn’t?

[00:39:27] Or would he have actually given you some great part? I don’t know. Why are it mostly men in power? There’s more females in the entertainment industry making these decisions and making these movies. That’s what’s inspiring to see as it slowly starts happening. Is that happening more? It’s starting to happen more.

[00:39:41] It’s still not enough, but I do think there’s more female executives. Mm.

[00:39:46] LM: And that’s like the people who are making the decisions about what movies are made.

[00:39:50] HG: There’s a lot of women in like positions where you could sell TV shows or movies to them. A lot of the high, high positions are still men, but there’s more women involved in more executive level [00:40:00] positions.

[00:40:00] I love that. Yeah. That’s

[00:40:01] LM: amazing. What did you find different about the experience of writing, directing a movie versus acting in movies?

[00:40:06] HG: Well, it’s way more stressful to direct a movie because you see what the budget is, you know how much money you have, and then you’re just like, well, if I miss my day and then I don’t get this, what’s going to happen?

[00:40:15] You have more of a relationship with the financier, which can be stressful because you understand all these different issues with like, I need to get SAG to sign off on our thing so we can start shooting. And there’s so many more stressful moments, but then it’s also really satisfying because you are telling a story that means something to you and it’s coming to fruition.

[00:40:33] So that’s really cool.

[00:40:34] LM: I’m asking this as like a person who’s not that familiar with the process, are you able to get a movie to a place where you’re like, that was 100 percent my vision? Or are there so many cooks in the kitchen? I haven’t

[00:40:43] HG: been 100 percent able to do that, no. But I’ve gotten close enough where I feel like somewhat of the message is coming across, but there’s certain aspects of like filmmaking that I feel really confident about, and there’s other aspects that I’m newer at, so it’s an exciting learning process.

[00:40:59] What’s your favorite part of it? [00:41:00] Um, Just telling a story that means something to you, like, as a woman who grew up watching movies, like, it’s funny because I actually just recently met, like, the Breakfast Club, and I was like, oh my god, I idolize them. And these movies were very good and classics, but if you look at underlying, there was pretty sexist messages in some of them, you know?

[00:41:17] So I guess I just want to be part of the group of people that’s changing the culture to be more empowering to women. There was a scene in Sixteen Candles where they’re like, oh take this girl, she’s passed out, just do whatever you want with her. Basically like date rape, right? But when you’re watching the movie, it didn’t come across like that to me as like a teenager, but now as an adult, it’s like, that’s way creepy.

[00:41:35] Those were the classic movies of my childhood that I absolutely loved, but there’s a lot of underlying sexist messages in a lot of films, and to kind of like dissect that and put a more empowering message forward to women. We need more women telling stories so we’re not just receiving this like, oh, just kill the stripper and then hide it because she’s a stripper.

[00:41:51] Who cares about her? There’s

[00:41:52] LM: real consequences. Yeah, it’s really interesting. Do you feel like that about anything? Because you’ve played strippers. You’ve

[00:41:58] HG: played. I do. I do have like a compassionate [00:42:00] feeling. I feel like I’ve just been more cast in the kind of sexy roles. I’ve played a prostitute, a stripper, like all these different things, a porn star.

[00:42:07] And so I do kind of get into that character and think about what would this be like. And then I do feel like sometimes we judge harshly these like sex worker people when it’s just like. Why? The men that go to them, you’re not judging them, but you’re judging the sex worker. It’s like Monica Lewinsky. Oh, is she horrible, but Bill Clinton’s fine?

[00:42:22] Like, why does he get to get off and get honored and now she’s supposed to feel so bad about herself? Like, isn’t he the man, adult, that should have been responsible for himself, whereas she was a very young person? So I feel like it’s a complete double

[00:42:34] LM: standard that makes me so mad. Does it make you feel differently about the fact that you acted in these roles?

[00:42:39] Are you happy that you’re able to develop compassion and empathy? I mean, I wasn’t able to

[00:42:44] HG: get other roles to be honest. Like I, yeah. Would I have loved to be in the movie monster? Do you know what I mean? And get out my rage. But those are the roles that I got. My goal was to be like an independent woman.

[00:42:53] So it was more important to me to support myself financially and not have to rely on anyone else. [00:43:00] That’s why I make my own stuff now to tell stories that I feel are empowering.

[00:43:03] LM: Well, and it’s also such an important part of the empowerment story is it’s not just saying, I’m empowered, but it’s like, you were like, I need money.

[00:43:11] I need to be able to support myself. That’s a huge part of the empowerment story that exists that I feel like we don’t talk about as much, you know, and you need to make money

[00:43:19] HG: being a sexy woman in roles. And that’s the way that I was able to make money.

[00:43:26] LM: Was there a moment where you were like, I’ve made it, I’m comfortable, I don’t have to be nervous about this thing anymore?

[00:43:32] As an artist, you’re always

[00:43:33] HG: like, I want to keep doing this. This is so fun. And luckily, I am still working and doing cool stuff. But I guess, yeah, there’s always a fear like, oh, I hope I can still keep doing this. And I sometimes read other more successful actors having that fear, which makes me feel like, okay.

[00:43:46] But no, sometimes I get scared, like, well, can I keep doing this? But I feel really, really grateful that my entire adult life I’ve been doing it. Yeah. Okay.

[00:43:55] LM: TM, huge part of your wellness routine still? Yeah, I do it every day, 40 minutes a day. [00:44:00] And 20 in the morning and 20, like, in the afternoon? Sometimes

[00:44:02] HG: I group it together into 40, but occasionally I’ll split it, but sometimes I wake up and then do 40 minutes.

[00:44:06] And how did that start for you? Well, I was working with David Lynch on Twin Peaks, the show. You know, I was 21, I think, and I was just kind of a nervous kid, insecure, and he told me about meditation. He’s like, this is really great. And I learned from his meditation coach, this woman, Penny Hines. It really helped me a lot.

[00:44:23] The main thing it helped me with, if I look back, I used to eat really unhealthy, like I have like a huge sweet tooth. You know that moment where you move out of living with your parents and you’re like, I can eat whatever I want. Like, I would be like, I’m not eating dinner tonight, I’m going to get a Reese’s peanut butter cup, I’m going to get a Kit Kat, I’m going to get Twix, or I’d be like, I’m getting a carton of ice cream, I’m going to eat that for dinner.

[00:44:41] And it was gross. And I’d be like, and now I’m not going to eat food, I’m going to like starve myself so that, I wasn’t starving myself like anorexically, but I would be like, I won’t eat any food, I’ll just eat this ice cream. And then. Meditation helped me to stop doing that because obviously that’s a terrible thing to do.

[00:44:54] LM: Did you ever have a messed up relationship with food over the course of your life?

[00:44:59] HG: I mean, I [00:45:00] luckily never had an eating disorder, but I think I was neurotic, you know, and I think that I, left to my own devices, I could easily overindulge my sugar. cravings, for sure. I love cooking my own food, making my own food that feels like it comes from like this place of love, and I have the ingredients, and I make it for myself, or if my friends make me food, you know, I just feel like food is so loving.

[00:45:20] And I’m like, in Chosen Family, there’s a lot of scenes where they’re sitting around eating food together. I feel like it’s just so loving to cook food with your friends or to make food for your

[00:45:27] LM: friends. It’s so interesting because you have Chosen Family, and then you also have this horror movie that’s like so different in vibes.

[00:45:34] Is the energy on set for two movies like that really different?

[00:45:36] HG: It was fun on both. The Place of Bones was really cool because we have a female director on that, Audrey Cummings, and the female roles are really cool. It was a really cool script, and it’s really scary. I’ve been doing some stuff in the genre world, doing more scary movies, and sometimes there’s really great roles for women in that space, and, It was really fun.

[00:45:55] She’s a badass and she just wanted to be scary and great action and there’s something really fun. I got to [00:46:00] be a badass with like a gun and like fight to save my daughter and it was really fun.

[00:46:04] LM: Is it scary when you’re doing it at all?

[00:46:07] HG: Well, you know what’s gonna happen, but I mean the idea of what could happen is scary.

[00:46:10] Yeah. It’s scary, but after you’ve done the same scene like five or six times, you know, I mean, you want it to be scary for the viewers and you’re trying to be in the moment and be scared, but it was more cold. It was freezing where we were shooting. Where were you shooting? We were shooting in California, but it was like 30, you could see our breath.

[00:46:25] Like we were on this, like in the middle of nowhere, there was nowhere to go to get warm and we were just freezing our butts off. Do

[00:46:31] LM: you have any other like fun on set stories from any of the movies that you’ve done? Like you’ve worked with such iconic people.

[00:46:38] HG: Well, something that popped in my head, it’s on the Place of Bones, so we were in this old western kind of set, and there were the bathrooms were really far away, and so we would be like, oh, do you want something to drink?

[00:46:47] Do you want a tea? And then we were like, tea means pee. And we were just like, I don’t want to walk all the way over there to these bathrooms. You know, like dehydrating were like, let’s just not drink any water. But like iconic, I don’t, you mean from movies in [00:47:00] the past? Yeah, I’m curious,

[00:47:01] LM: like, you’ve worked with like Steve Martin, Eddie Murphy, you’ve worked with, you did the Austin Powers movies, which are just like a trend.

[00:47:08] I mean, it was

[00:47:09] HG: so fun to work with Steve Martin. I definitely had a crush on him when I was growing up watching him on Saturday Night Live, and I remember he was doing King Tut, like Funky Tut, and there is a moment when, because I didn’t have any family that were in the, And show business, like, where you meet these people and you’re like, I’m sitting next to Steve Martin.

[00:47:24] Like, this is insane. Like, I’m, this is so exciting, you know?

[00:47:27] LM: How do you not be starstruck? Like, by the end of it, were you starstruck. I’m still starstruck. It’s fun. I’m still starstruck by

[00:47:34] HG: so many people that I get to work with or meet. Did he share any, I don’t know, like, Steve Martin y wisdom? He’s really into art.

[00:47:41] I had dinner at his house once. It was really cool. I mean, he’s sweet. It’s great to see Him doing all this cool stuff. I’ve gotten to meet a lot of really cool interesting people I think when I was younger Comedy was not like my goal but now I realized that I actually admire it even more like because when I was younger I was like I want to be in Dramas and now I admire comedians even more than the [00:48:00] dramatic actors because I think it’s harder to make people laugh Because why?

[00:48:04] Because, you know, if you’re doing a movie about the Holocaust, it’s gonna be sad, do you know what I mean? But if you’re saying a line, like, some people can make it funny and some people can’t. And I think for you to find the humor and joy in life, to me, is more important than finding what’s dark. Because, now that I’ve lived longer, I’m like, it’s very easy to find depressing things to freak out about and feel depressed.

[00:48:22] But, is it? Harder to find humor. So to me the most beautiful thing to do is if you can take something in your life That’s been really hard and find a way to have humor about it. Like to me That’s like a healing moment is finding humor. Comedy is tragedy plus time or something like that. I’ve heard that So

[00:48:39] LM: this is I feel like the through line that I perceive from you is Taking what’s dark and finding the light in it and finding your own joy.

[00:48:47] I’m curious if you have any advice for anybody who’s You Struggling to do that.

[00:48:53] HG: Well, I think 12 step groups are free and it’s a great way to like, when I went to Al Anon, I think I thought, well, my parents weren’t [00:49:00] really alcoholics or anything. And my sister has her struggles, but I was like, I don’t know why I’m here, but I got so much out of it.

[00:49:05] It’s free. You’re in a community. You learned how to have compassion for other people. Everyone shares these intimate details of their lives. You feel so close to them. It makes you realize how kind of slightly meaningless most social interactions are. Cause when you go to these groups, people will just like.

[00:49:19] Straight up tell you what’s going on in their lives. And you feel this sense of intimacy. It’s sad in most social interactions. It’s very surface level, you know, cause it feels so good when people really open up and you really get to know them. And if you can have compassion for someone else, who’s going through something similar to what you’re going through, it helps you have more compassion for yourself.

[00:49:37] There’s this saying, I don’t know if I’m allowed to say this word on your podcast, but it’s called I’m the piece of shit in the center of the universe. Sometimes you feel like, like, I’m alone and I’m this horrible person. But I think when you go to these meetings, you’re like, everyone struggles with the same problems and like, we’re all in this together and I’m not that bad.

[00:49:52] Nothing I went through is that bad. Like I have no reason to feel bad about myself. When you look at someone else and they’re dealing with whatever, shame or [00:50:00] hating themselves, you’re like, wow, they should really just let that go. And then you just

[00:50:03] LM: think, well, I’m That applies to me too. I have a girlfriend who is an Alcoholics Anonymous and she just started that and she is just shook by the community and shook by the conversation level.

[00:50:13] Like you said, it’s just like the amount of vulnerability and disclosure that is happening in these rooms. She’s like, it is weird going out to dinner with my other friends now because I’m like, let’s talk about the deep stuff and it’s harder to move the conversation there. I’m perpetually trying to, like I have a conversation card company so I can blame it on the cards instead of just saying like.

[00:50:32] No, I want to go deep, but I do think a lot of people struggle with wanting more depth in their relationships and feeling like they can’t get it. I

[00:50:40] HG: feel like a lot of people are afraid to reveal what they really feel or vulnerable parts of themselves. And when you realize that that’s actually what makes you more lovable, like I actually have an affirmation, like my vulnerability is what makes me even more lovable.

[00:50:53] Because it’s true, because when I’m with my friends and they really reveal like their deepest, darkest secrets or desires or fears, then you feel so close. [00:51:00] So it’s weird how we try to hide from that, but then it’s what gives us the deepest sense of connecting. A hundred percent.

[00:51:06] LM: Okay, I have a few questions that I ask everybody.

[00:51:09] What is one thing that you’ve purchased that’s made you healthier or happier? Healthier, happier. Okay.

[00:51:15] HG: Well, this is probably an endorsement for a company, which I wish they were paying me for it, but they’re not. But, um, I subscribe to like Rent the Runway and it’s really fun. Like I just like rent all these clothes and then I send it back and my friend and I were just talking about last night about what should we rent and it’s really fun.

[00:51:29] LM: I think it scratches that shopping itch because you can like go and just heart stuff so you have it in your hearted area and then you’re not spending money every time you’re hearting something. What do you think is the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in the name of living a healthier, happier life?

[00:51:44] Meditation is

[00:51:45] HG: great. And like what you said on one of your podcasts, just having meaningful relationships, whether it’s your love relationship or your friends or connecting with the people you care about, letting them know you care about them. They let you know they care about you. I also think like doing nothing is really great.

[00:51:59] If I fill out my [00:52:00] schedule with too many things, I don’t have downtime to just kind of putter around or do nothing. Do nothing is underrated. Doing nothing. I like to have one day a week where I just lay around. My boyfriend is kind of like, why aren’t we going to go do something? I’m like, we are. We’re doing nothing.

[00:52:13] I lay in bed. Sometimes I like, I’ll listen to like a meeting on my phone, I’ll go make myself this really good breakfast. I might call friends, you know, read a book or go and rent the runway. I don’t know what I’m going to rent, you know, like, uh, just like I do nothing until I feel really inspired to do something, but just letting myself rest and not feel like I have to run around and do all these, like, I have to do this at this time.

[00:52:33] Do that. I don’t like running around. Constantly. And I get craniosacral therapy, which totally

[00:52:37] LM: blesses me out. So you also said that community is really, really huge for you. Can you share a tip for somebody who’s maybe wanting to build that really strong community to find that chosen family in their life, but they’re struggling?

[00:52:49] HG: I say this to some friends of mine. If you hang out with someone and you feel better about yourself and your life, That’s someone you should gravitate towards. You know, if you hang out with people and you feel worse or you feel like worse about [00:53:00] yourself or they’re not really there for you or they’re not really available, I would just go where the love is, which is like a 12 step saying.

[00:53:05] It’s like go where the love is, like go towards the people that make you feel good and just make it a priority because having a great friend and having great friends is so important. And then on the flip side, can you give us one tip for being a really good friend? Well asking questions and my friends are always kind of teasing me like oh my god, you have so many questions But yeah I think just being supportive and listening because sometimes you don’t want to be given advice So you just want someone to listen to you?

[00:53:29] Yeah, be there for you and just say something supportive or just you kind of want someone to say it’s all gonna be okay

[00:53:34] LM: I had somebody on my podcast recently and they said one of the best things you can do is enter a conversation and Set the terms for it almost. Like, do you want me just to listen?

[00:53:42] What are you looking to get out of this conversation? And my husband and I now do that. Or my girlfriend. Sometimes, you know when a girlfriend’s kind of venting and you’re like, well, try this, try this, try this, and you can tell that she’s just getting more and more annoyed. You’re like, oh, wait, did you just want me to Yeah.

[00:53:58] [00:54:00] Yeah. What is one mistake that you’ve made and what is one thing that you feel like you really got right?

[00:54:06] HG: On a broad scale, I would say I’ve been way too hard on myself and said way too many mean thoughts to myself. And getting it right is just like, I think I’ve spent my life trying to peel the onion of like, how can I be more unconditionally loving to myself

[00:54:19] LM: and enjoy my life?

[00:54:21] I feel like the need to almost reparent yourself has beget such like a beautiful self love.

[00:54:26] HG: No, I feel like that’s like the basis of probably all therapy is like how do you become your own loving parent? You could be mad at your parents for so long, but when do you just go, okay, well that was what it was and now I’m just going to be my own loving parent and then you build that muscle and it takes time to really strengthen that muscle.

[00:54:41] But now it’s cool because I was talking to someone, they’re like, well, who gives you like the support and encouragement that you really need? And I thought like, actually I give that to myself. Sometimes I need help from other people, but I do feel like I can give it to myself a

[00:54:52] LM: lot of the time. And with your affirmations, do you feel like you believe them when you say them, or do you not need to, or do you believe them over time [00:55:00] when you say them enough?

[00:55:01] I have them in my

[00:55:01] HG: phone, and I read them to myself twice a day. I think that is an exercise to strengthen your inner parent, you know, because saying those things, even if it makes you feel gross, and you’re just like, oh, this is so silly, like, My house today that I have, I had this affirmation, I am in my dream house, I’m looking at the ocean, I can afford it, and I feel like I’m in nature and I’m so inspired, you know?

[00:55:20] And I was reading that for years before I got my house, and now I’m sitting in my house, I’m like, I got it.

[00:55:25] LM: Yeah, I love that. And it’s also true that when your parents are saying those things to you when you’re a kid, maybe not like your dream house, but you can trust yourself, like you’re wonderful, you’re kind, all these things.

[00:55:34] You might not believe it when you’re a kid, but if you hear it enough, that becomes the message that you tell yourself. So, As an adult, you might not need to believe it at the beginning. No, I think

[00:55:42] HG: it’s important to put in stuff, you know, cause I do this with friends and people and I help them do their affirmations.

[00:55:47] And I’m like, you have to just say it as if you believe it, even if you don’t. Right? Do you have a good starter one that anybody listening could start with? I love myself unconditionally. I approve of myself. You could be like, I’m the most gorgeous, sexy woman. [00:56:00] Whatever you’re insecure about, you flip it.

[00:56:01] Right? Yeah. So if you’re like, Am I ever going to work again? It’s like, I’m making so much money doing what I love, making amazing projects that inspire people and women, and I’m so happy to go to

[00:56:11] LM: work every day. I love that. Okay, and then last is, can we get two pieces of advice, one that’s sort of like a broader mindset thing, and then one very specific actionable thing.

[00:56:20] HG: I would tell everyone that I love and care about to do the affirmations, you know, like if you have something about work, like I have my dream job or just like I am so healthy and I feel so good inside my body if you’re dealing with like sickness or just I love myself. I make great choices. Sometimes I.

[00:56:36] Get afraid to make decisions. Whatever your fear is, you flip it and you say it to yourself as if it’s already happening. You can’t be like, I’m trying to feel good about myself. You have to be like, I love myself and I love my life and I’m an amazing human. I don’t know, something really positive, like you’re already there.

[00:56:50] I love that. Should that be the mindset one

[00:56:51] LM: or the really specific one?

[00:56:53] HG: Okay. The really specific one. I think you gotta love yourself first. Sometimes people think like, oh, if I give, give, [00:57:00] give, then I’ll get love back. This is for me, okay? I don’t know about everybody, but I feel like if I love myself first, I have more to give.

[00:57:06] And then I’m not kind of like a resentful martyr. I love that.

[00:57:09] LM: Can you tell us a little bit in your own words about your two movies?

[00:57:12] HG: Yes. Well, okay. Place of Bones, it’s a scary, thrilling horror drama from a female director, which is cool, and it’s exciting, and I like the end. It’s a deeply satisfying end, and my movie, it’s just a journey of how I learned how to stop being a people pleaser, but told in a movie.

[00:57:32] funny but realistically poignant way about how do you stop being this codependent people pleaser and just do what’s good for you. I love that and where can we watch those? Place of Bones, I think it’s coming out August 24th and that’ll be in theaters and on demand. Chosen Family, uh, Right now the release date is October 4th.

[00:57:53] I’m not sure if that will change, but at the moment, we’re heading for that. Okay. That’s the same. It’ll be in theaters and on demand.

[00:57:57] LM: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Heather. Thanks for [00:58:00] talking to me. This is a very deep conversation. I really appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability and just like the way that you see the world.

[00:58:06] Thank you. That’s all for this episode of the Liz Moody Podcast. If you loved this episode, one of the best ways that you can support the pod is by sending a link to your friends, your family, your partner, your co workers, you name it. You’re helping grow the podcast and you’re helping the people you love change their lives.

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[00:59:01] Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.