How To Hack Your Attachment Styles To Be Happier, More In Love, And Actually Enjoy Your Job

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[00:00:00] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we’re sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and long time journalist. Let’s dive in. You might have heard about your attachment style in terms of dating, but did you know it impacts your friendships, how you perform at work, your health, and your habits?

[00:00:24] and pretty much every single part of your life. I did not, which is why I wanted to do this episode. It turns out, figuring out your attachment styles, and yes, we have different ones for different situations, is the missing piece to being the friend, the daughter or son, the partner, the parent, the employee, the boss, the person that we want to be in the world.

[00:00:46] Your attachment styles are keeping you stuck in a version of your life that doesn’t feel nearly as good as it should, which And, and, they are very easily changeable and you are going to get very specific action [00:01:00] steps for that in this episode. My guest today is Dr. Judy Ho. She is a legendary neuropsychologist.

[00:01:07] She has written multiple books, including most recently, The Brilliant, The New Rules of Attachment, How to Heal Your Relationships, Reparent Your Inner Child, and Secure Your Life Vision, which I highly recommend everybody pick up. She has hosted a TED talk. She is a two time recipient of the National Institute of Mental Health Services Research Award.

[00:01:27] She is a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, and she frequently writes for Psychology Today and Forbes. One super quick note. I know that 50 percent of you listening to this episode do not follow the podcast. Take a second now to hit that follow or subscribe button. It is the best way to support the podcast, and it makes sure that episodes show up right in your feed.

[00:01:49] Go ahead, do it right now. I’ll wait. Trust me, you do not want to miss out on any of our upcoming shows. They are jam packed with science and stories that will change your life. All right, [00:02:00] let’s get right into the episode. Dr. Judy, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:03] JH: Thank you, Liz. Big fan of your work, so I’m really excited to be here.

[00:02:07] LM: I’m a big fan of your work as well. So let’s just dive right in. One of your core theories is that Our attachment styles are impacting so much more of our lives than just our romantic relationships. Can you share a little bit about how it’s manifesting in different parts of our lives?

[00:02:21] JH: Oh, for sure. So, I think that when you look at online articles, you check out social media, most of what you see about attachment theory is that it’s manifesting in your relationships, which of course is an important way that attachment styles impact relationships.

[00:02:33] Your life, but I think what a lot of people are missing is that attachment styles go to the core of who you are. It has so much to do with what you believe about yourself, your self concept, your self esteem, what you think is possible to achieve in your life. And so in that way, it affects everything in your life.

[00:02:50] It affects romantic relationships, friendships, family relationships, your career goals, whether or not you think you deserve good physical and mental wellness. It affects so, so much. I think that [00:03:00] that’s the missing piece in the conversation.

[00:03:02] LM: So, Is your argument that if we can understand our attachment styles, we can show up better in all these different parts of our lives, or is it understanding plus changing our attachment styles?

[00:03:14] JH: Yeah, understanding is a key first step. And then learning how to change. And I think that everybody can achieve secure attachment at any age and stage of your life. But at the same time, even if you’re not changing it right away, or sometimes during stressful times you find that your insecure attachment style is.

[00:03:31] creeping back in. That’s super normal, but that doesn’t mean that you’re still not able to have and achieve a good life, even with an insecure attachment style that isn’t quite healed yet.

[00:03:40] LM: Wait, so is it malleable? Because I feel like, for instance, I self identify as an anxiously attached person. Are you saying that sometimes I might be anxiously attached, and sometimes I might be securely attached, and in this situation I might be avoidantly attached?

[00:03:53] JH: Yeah, so that’s another piece that I think is missing from the conversation, too. I think that a lot of what we consume about attachment styles is, this is your [00:04:00] style, it’s almost like a personality trait, and then here’s what you have to watch for, or here’s how you work with it. But actually, I think that attachment is so much broader than that, and it is more permeable than what people think.

[00:04:12] A lot of people that I’ve worked with will tell me, Yeah, I’m anxiously attached in these areas of my life. And then in these other areas of my life, maybe I’m securely attached or maybe I’m avoidantly attached or that generally they’re securely attached. But then when they come upon certain stressors or triggers, that’s when certain pieces of the insecure attachment will come up.

[00:04:31] And I think that a big misconception is that a lot of people looked at this one style called disorganized and they thought that it was like a combination style, like maybe it’s anxious and avoidant combined. But I think that Disorganized is absolutely its own style, and anxious and avoidant combined is what you are, if that’s what you’re really ascribing to when you look at your life.

[00:04:49] LM: And you can be different types in different areas of your life.

[00:04:53] JH: Exactly. So I see that a lot too. So people will say, at work, I’m kind of anxiously attached. In my romantic [00:05:00] relationships, I’m more avoidantly attached. That’s really, really common.

[00:05:02] LM: That’s so interesting because one of the things that I struggle with is like, oh, if I’m anxiously attached and that’s because of my childhood and that’s because of my relationships, is that going to make me worse at work?

[00:05:13] Is that going to make me worse in my friendships? I guess what I’m confused about is how we could have these like core childhood experiences that would impact our attachment styles, but then we show up differently in all these different places.

[00:05:24] JH: Yeah, and I think that has to do with a combination of childhood experiences that you’ve maybe had with one parent or one primary caregiver versus another, or maybe the way that you coped.

[00:05:34] So, for example, if you’re somebody who generally developed an anxious attachment style from your upbringing, from your experiences, but then later on, you coped by being really overly focused at work and achieving huge success at work, then at work, you’re not really anxiously attached because you have all of this Experience all of this knowledge base that tells you, oh, at work, I don’t have to be so worried about what people are thinking about me because [00:06:00] so much of that is already established and I have proof of it.

[00:06:02] But when it comes to interacting with people, especially new people who are not sure about your footing, that’s where the anxious attachment still continues to show up.

[00:06:10] LM: That’s so interesting. So in some ways, the places where. you have more secure attachment showing up could almost be coping mechanisms.

[00:06:18] JH: Yeah, they’re coping mechanisms because really when you think about attachment style and what it boils down to, it’s talking about a time in your life where you literally could not survive without help. I mean, that’s how we’re born. That’s how all mammals are born. But human beings, this is why we’re so cute as babies because we have to be or else primary caregivers would be like, stinky diaper.

[00:06:37] I can’t sleep. Like, why should I deal with you? It’s a way to try to elicit. caregiving responses from them. As a child, when you have these kinds of experiences, you’re also going to cope with your child mind. And there’s a little bit of a black and white coping that happens. It’s very simplistic. So if you’re not able to get consistent caring from your primary caregivers, your coping might be, okay, [00:07:00] well, I have to find that somewhere else, or I have to just do everything myself because I can’t trust anybody around me.

[00:07:05] In that way of coping, sometimes you stumble upon something that you’re really good at. And then in that area of life, you become really securely attached. So I’ve also had people say, well, in my actual career, not so much. In my relationships, not so much. But when it comes to physical health, like, I got this.

[00:07:19] Like, I’ve been running marathons since I was 15. I know I can do it. And so in that area of life, they’re always consistently showing up as a securely attached person. But then in their career, they’re still insecurely attached. Because that’s not really where they found success as they were trying different ways of coping.

[00:07:34] LM: Okay. So let’s roll back. In the simplest terms, what are our attachment styles and how do they form?

[00:07:40] JH: Okay. So attachment styles are all based on the first crucial bonds that you have with the people who are most consistently showing up in your life and your caretakers. For most people, those are parents, but it can obviously include extended family or even family friends.

[00:07:53] Friends or even a really important teacher or coach, just people who you interact with and that you look for for [00:08:00] support and caring, and also to communicate your needs.

[00:08:02] LM: What age are we talking about? Because you say coach and I was under the impression that attachment styles are like two to three.

[00:08:08] JH: Yeah.

[00:08:09] So attachment style starts. The minute you’re born, basically, but we find in research that the most crucial time period is basically around the ages of zero to six. So some people can have a coach in kindergarten or first grade, possibly, or an important teacher, but really, it’s that first five or six years.

[00:08:26] And then as time goes along, there are other people who are important in your life that can reinforce your earlier attachment styles or maybe disprove them. But for the most part, our brains are. wanting to confirm existing ideas. And so even when you encounter somebody else who might be totally different from some of your early experiences, our brain is either likely to ignore it or almost justify it to fit an existing framework.

[00:08:51] You have to really consciously work to get your brain to say, Oh, this is a new experience. So what does that mean? Does that mean that I should change my preexisting ideas and thoughts? [00:09:00] But that takes conscious effort. It’s like taking your car from auto to manual. Like it just takes more effort. Can you share an example of that as it would pertain to somebody’s attachment style?

[00:09:09] Definitely. So let’s say somebody is avoidantly attached. As a very young child, they were asked to do basically adult like things. They were almost like a parentified child. And also, when they communicated their emotions, their parents kind of shot them down. Like, why are you talking about this? Like, nobody wants to hear about how sad you are.

[00:09:27] So then they learn from a very early age that, They shouldn’t talk about their feelings and that they should just basically focus on achievements and things rather than people. Let’s say in their teenage years, they find somebody who actually really wants to get to know them as a person, wants them to express their emotions.

[00:09:44] Maybe it’s a romantic partner, their first major girlfriend, and they’re like, hey, like, I really want to hear what you’re thinking and how you’re feeling. The person who has avoidant attachment, who has all these pre existing ideas, is much more likely to view that with skepticism. Like, why would you want to know my feelings?[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] It must be so that you can learn my weaknesses and then exploit them and use them against me. Rather than saying, oh wow, well maybe there are some people in my life who actually care about my feelings, you say something else that gives you the same idea of that existing narrative that nobody cares and that really, if they were to ask about your emotions, there’s a hidden agenda.

[00:10:19] So we all do this all the time and we don’t always recognize or realize that we’re doing it.

[00:10:25] LM: It’s The antidote to that, to bring awareness to those moments? Yes,

[00:10:29] JH: it’s awareness, and it’s really looking at your thoughts with more of a microscope. You know, we just accept our thoughts as truth most times.

[00:10:38] Like, we have a thought in our head, and either it’s happening or indicative of your life, or it’s gonna happen. That’s usually how language works in our brains. So it’s really just about questioning your thoughts. I have this little post it that I put that I’ve shown my clients to do as well. I have it on my desk and it says, thoughts does not equal truth.

[00:10:57] Like the little not equal signs, like thoughts does not [00:11:00] equal truth. Just to remind myself that sometimes if I get into like a deep, dark place with my thoughts and I’m like, I don’t know what to do. catastrophizing in my mind about what might happen that, hey, just because you had a thought doesn’t actually mean it’s going to come true or that it is true, right?

[00:11:13] We all do that so much in our lives and this is how we survive. Our brains, our anxious brains, this comes from our ancestors. The people who survived and gave us their genes. are not the people who were practicing mindfulness every day when there were bears around that could eat them, right? Like, either they got eaten or they survived.

[00:11:32] And if you survived, that means that you probably were a little bit more hypervigilant than the other people around you. So you have to remember that, like, all of our brains are attuned to threat. Oftentimes so much more than the potential reward, and it’s partially because of our ancestors and what got passed down.

[00:11:47] I

[00:11:48] LM: wonder if, and obviously evolution works in such a slow way, but as we don’t need to become attuned to those threats, if more calm traits will be passed on over time? Yeah, I [00:12:00] would

[00:12:00] JH: love to see that. Maybe we just haven’t given it enough years for us to evolve past that. I find that what happened is now that for like 98 percent of Humankind, we’re not so much worried about the daily threats of being eaten by a saber toothed tiger.

[00:12:14] We filled it with other threats. We filled it with emotional and psychological threats, like, am I going to be rejected if I ask this person out? Or if I go for this job, are people going to laugh at me or think that I’m ridiculous for even applying? We definitely have not evolved past emotional and psychological threats being distinguished from physical threats.

[00:12:32] It’s all threat to us. So anything can flip us into fight or flight. It’s not just the saber tooth tiger. It’s also what if I get rejected or what if they don’t like me? Do securely attached people flip into fight or flight less? Yes. So that’s what we see in the literature. They also find it easier to regulate their nervous system.

[00:12:51] They know how to modulate that more. Our brains and our bodies are not designed to be in fight or flight so persistently like we are in modern day stress culture. [00:13:00] I think that’s why people even wear stress as like. An emblem of their success. Like I’m so stressed. I have so much to do. Like, it’s a good thing.

[00:13:06] It’s not a good thing. Like when we’re so persistently stressed and we’re in fight or flight all the time, it really causes so much difficulty for us to make good decisions and to actualize and do the things that we really want to do in life, our brains and our bodies are meant to be in fight or flight in very short spurts.

[00:13:22] So again, going back to the prehistoric days, really it’s about. Running away from that saber toothed tiger, hopefully you win and you run away from them, and then you’re back to relaxing again. And then it’s like the next threat that might happen a day from now, right? But right now, I think so many of us are in nervous system dysregulation almost all the time, from the minute that we wake up to the minute that we go to sleep.

[00:13:42] And you can see the negative mental and physical consequences of that very clearly in the literature.

[00:13:47] LM: I’m jumping ahead a little bit, but I have to ask, would regulating your nervous system help make you more securely attached and would becoming more securely attached help regulate your nervous system?

[00:13:57] Yeah,

[00:13:58] JH: that’s a great question. It is. I think it [00:14:00] is a bidirectional process because the more your nervous system is calmed, the more you’re able to really sit with what’s going on and say, okay, what’s the best decision for? I might have an impulse and if I do this, I might be sabotaging this relationship or my career in some way.

[00:14:15] When you’re in fight or flight, you don’t have the luxury of, like, stopping to think about what might be the best decision for you, right? You’re just acting out of impulse, basically, out of survival instinct. So when you do have some time to slow down, when your nervous system is more regulated, you’re able to make the right decisions.

[00:14:31] better choices for your life, which then of course feeds back on your brain like, Oh, I can do this and I can produce positive outcomes in my life. And then that also then feeds back onto the nervous system too. Oh, like there’s a sense of calm. I feel confident that I can manage my environment and the people in it.

[00:14:48] LM: What is the research on attachment theory? Is it pretty widely accepted in the psychological community?

[00:14:53] JH: Yeah, attachment theory has research that dates back 70 to 80 years. It’s really amazing because there’s so [00:15:00] much research about it. But I also think that there are certain parts of it that have been untapped.

[00:15:04] And also there are certain parts that aren’t super clear. So even though everybody accepts attachment theory to some degree, I think one of the problems with attachment theory is how people handle this disorganized attachment. So, We’ve mentioned a little bit of the anxious attachment, a little bit of the avoidant attachment, but just to close the loop on that, people who are anxiously attached, they tend to be much more focused on their external environment for self concept and self regulation.

[00:15:30] So they’re kind of looking around them to make sure that they have the support that they need, that they get the validation that they need to feel good about themselves. And they’re also more prone to being overly helpful and codependent, like somebody else in their life that they really care about. is having a problem and they just like jump right in.

[00:15:45] Like they just avoid their own problems, don’t even deal with themselves. They’re really prone to not taking care of themselves at times that they’re really stressed out by other people in their lives. Whereas avoidant attachment, these are people who generally focus on academic achievements, occupational [00:16:00] success, things rather than people because they found that people can’t really be counted on.

[00:16:03] So they tend to really focus their self esteem on things that they can do. But then when they have a setback. It really rattles them and it really rattles their self esteem. They’re also the kind of people who, when they’re stressed out, they don’t reach out for support. They just go and isolate and they try to deal with it themselves.

[00:16:19] Disorganized attachment, I think there’s a lot of misconceptions about it. People will say things like, well, this is that group that. has personality disorder. So this is that group that is the most effed up and they can’t be helped.

[00:16:31] LM: I didn’t know it existed until your book. I’ve always thought there were just three.

[00:16:34] I thought it was avoidant, anxious, and secure.

[00:16:36] JH: Yeah, because those are the ones that are talked about the most. And the problem was, even in the original research, disorganized attachment was so poorly dealt with. Like, they just found these babies and toddlers that they couldn’t really identify and didn’t fit into those three other categories.

[00:16:48] They’re like, This is a whole group, like, it’s like a mixed bag and we’re going to call them disorganized attached, which is not helpful. And also the label is terrible too, like disorganized. It’s like, yeah, they were disorganized and they called this group disorganized. [00:17:00] But over time, what I’ve learned through more research and also working with people.

[00:17:04] patients is that what really defines the disorganized attached style is that they find themselves constantly in a state of chaos. And that’s because when they were children, they kind of grew up in experiences and environments that was very chaotic. Maybe they had parents who had their own severe alcohol or substance use problems or really severe mental health issues that weren’t being addressed, or maybe they’ve even been exposed to trauma.

[00:17:28] But essentially what that results in is this feeling that you’re unable to regulate your nervous system, and that feeling is there all the time. So this is the group that’s most likely to be in fight or flight the longest. And when you look at the ways that they cope, it’s very disorganized. It’s basically like one day they’ll cope this way, the next day they’ll cope this other way.

[00:17:46] It’s the same situation and one day they respond in one way, the other day they respond in a different way. So it makes it harder for people who are having relationships with them to also understand their footing too. Like, I have no idea how you feel about me from day to day because yesterday you wanted me around and today [00:18:00] you want to kick me out.

[00:18:00] Like, what’s going on? But that’s because internally they can’t regulate as well as the other types.

[00:18:05] LM: So that is the part that’s maybe more in dispute a little bit in the psychological community?

[00:18:11] JH: Yeah, I feel like people just don’t totally understand what disorganized attachment is about. And so they’ve just gotten weird labels like, this person has personality disorder, they must have disorganized attachment.

[00:18:20] Or, oh, disorganized attachment is just a combination of the other types, which I know we earlier talked about that that’s not true. But what I found is that what’s most defining is that chaotic nature and that persistent flight or feeling.

[00:18:32] LM: Is there consensus in the psychological community that we can all become securely attached?

[00:18:36] JH: Yes. That’s also not talked about as much. I do think that there’s probably some therapists and also some people who might think that once your attachment style is solidified, you’re kind of living with that. I think that that’s, that’s true. Maybe been like more of the common ideas in the last 10 years or so, but I think that in the last two or three years, there’s more and more people saying, of course you can heal or your attachment style, it [00:19:00] just takes self recognition, and then it takes learning the strategies, of course, it takes the motivation, right?

[00:19:06] Some people, if they decide that it’s not worth their time, or that it’s not going to be successful, they might not even try. But just like healing anything else. Thanks. As long as you put in the effort, you’re going to see the results. And I think it’s really just like attuning your brain to the fact that this is something that can be changed.

[00:19:23] LM: I want to ground this a little bit more for anybody who’s listening and they’re trying to figure out like, where do I fall into this? Because even hearing you say that, I’m like, maybe I’m avoidantly attached more than I’m anxiously attached. So I’m going to say situations. And can you tell me how an anxious, avoidant, disorganized, and a securely attached person would show up briefly in these situations?

[00:19:39] Yeah, that’s great. So at work, how would the different attachment styles be evidenced?

[00:19:44] JH: Okay. So anxiously attached people at work are really focused on what other people think of them. So they’re going to have a harder time initiating at work, especially projects that they have to do all by themselves.

[00:19:55] They kind of want to get that reassurance first that they’re on the right track. Sometimes they’ll be more attuned to the [00:20:00] social environment, more so than even their work. They want to be liked by everyone. So they want to become the social director right away. And then of course their work actually gets neglected.

[00:20:08] So that’s one way that that can show up. For somebody who’s avoidantly attached, I mean, the minute they get to work, they’re just overly competing. They’re like, I can do that. I’m going to be the best. And then when other people are working with them, it’s not that they can’t work in groups, but like they naturally gravitate towards the leader mentality.

[00:20:24] Like they want to control things and like get on top. And of course, they’re very good at it. It’s hard to argue with that. And then if they do come up with problems at work, they’re the last person to ask. So where the anxious attachment person would say, Oh, I’m going to go ask my boss right away, like see what to do.

[00:20:38] The avoidantly attached person is going to try to keep that a secret. Like I’m not going to tell anyone I’m struggling. I’m going to try to figure this out. myself because I don’t want anyone to perceive that as a weakness and use it against me. So that’s an avoidantly attached person at work.

[00:20:51] Disorganized attachment at work. I think that there’s a deep sense of mistrust in people. And so when they’re at work, if somebody says, Hey, let me help you. I’m like, why do you want to [00:21:00] help me? You’re going to take credit for what I do. And so that mistrust just makes it really hard for them to actualize and to actually achieve bigger goals.

[00:21:08] It kind of feels like they’re just staying above water. A lot of the times one day they could really like one of their coworkers and then they’ll make a mistake or make a bad joke. And all of a sudden it’s like, I hate you get away from me. I don’t want to talk to you anymore. Canceling lunch. I mean, just like kind of drastic in terms of how they might respond when they feel like somebody is upset them.

[00:21:28] LM: I want to give all of them a hug, but I really want to give the disorganized Christmas a hug. For

[00:21:32] JH: sure. For sure. I’m like, they need the most nurturing in some ways. And then the securely attached person, I think, is somebody who can balance a lot of these things. So they can self actualize, they can be independent, but they don’t mind relying on people.

[00:21:44] They don’t mind admitting that there might be some faults, maybe some mistakes that they made. They don’t necessarily generally think that people are out to get them or won’t support them. They believe generally that people are going to be helpful to them. And also they tend to believe in their own ability to [00:22:00] achieve good outcomes.

[00:22:00] So maybe they were working in a team, but then your team’s out of town today. They’re not here. That’s fine. I’m going to keep working at it. And I think it’s going to be just as good. Even if it’s just me, they’re just a little bit more flexible when I come up with problems too, like being able to attune themselves to different ways of working around something versus having to like overly rely on people or overly.

[00:22:20] Wanting to be completely the lone wolf and not rely on people at all.

[00:22:23] LM: Okay. How would the different attachment styles show up in personal health and habits?

[00:22:29] JH: Okay. So that’s a good one. I think that that’s one that people don’t talk about as much. So with the anxiously attached, somebody who is trying to achieve a personal goal, they’re going to be looking a lot to other people that they think they want to emulate.

[00:22:41] To even come up with what goal they should have. So this might be the person who goes to social media or goes to somebody that they really admire celebrity and they say, well, how did they achieve what they have now? Like, how did they lose weight? How did they gain more muscle? I’m going to just follow their plan to the T, right?

[00:22:57] Even if it may not actually really work for you, or maybe [00:23:00] even is consistent with your personality traits and likes the person who’s avoidantly attached. I mean, it’s all about one doing it on your own, but two, they’re constantly competing with other people in themselves. Once they reach their original goal, it’s like.

[00:23:12] Well, what’s the next one? I can’t just like sit here and be excited about my success. I need to do the next thing. A lot of my patients with avoidantly attached personal styles, they’ll come to me and they’ll say, I did the marathon. I’m going to do the Ironman now. I’m like, okay, can you like sit for a week maybe and just be relaxed and say how exciting this was that you achieved this particular milestone, but it’s like they have to go to the next goal right away.

[00:23:35] LM: I’ll let you keep going, but as somebody who’s realizing they’re avoidantly attached, were avoidantly attached people not made to feel like they were enough as kids? Usually?

[00:23:46] JH: Yeah, either that they were made to not feel like they were enough. But I think that there’s the other aspect of it, which is that some of the support and admiration they got from people around them, peers and adults.

[00:23:58] Came from them doing [00:24:00] things so they felt like, Oh, I have to keep doing and some of my avoidantly attached people. They’ll tell me that as a younger person, their family congregated around their achievements. So sometimes it was hard to bring the family together, but Oh, like this person has a soccer game or this person has a speech and debate event.

[00:24:16] We’re all going to go. And it was a way to bring people together. Also, it was also the way that they were the most validated, like that’s where they got the most positive reinforcement. It was about their achievements, less so about who they really are, or Yeah. Their feelings or

[00:24:29] LM: what they’re thinking, which is in many ways the same thing, because it’s like you’re not enough for just being the person that you are.

[00:24:34] You’re only enough if you layer on all these extra components.

[00:24:37] JH: Exactly. And so then when they have a setback, like we all do with any goal that we set for ourselves, they’re the ones who take it the hardest too.

[00:24:45] LM: Because it’s a self identity thing. Exactly. Who am I if not this?

[00:24:48] JH: Oh, exactly. So people who are avoidantly attached have the hardest time when they retire.

[00:24:52] Because it’s like, what’s my identity now? I’ve been this like, industrious person who’s been working all my life. And now I’m supposed to do things [00:25:00] and like, gardening? Like, what’s that like? Or if they lose

[00:25:03] LM: a job or something like that. So I imagine they would benefit. You talk about in your book diversification of identity, and we have a podcast episode that talks about diversification of identity in terms of work life balance and feeling like we have a self outside of work.

[00:25:16] But I imagine avoidantly attached people would benefit the most from not only am I a worker, but I’m a gardener and a reader and a mom and a sister and a friend.

[00:25:26] JH: Exactly, especially the diversification that relates them to other people, because most of the times if you ask a person with avoidant attachment to describe themselves, They’ll use personality traits, they’ll use their achievements, they’ll use their positions, but less so like, I’m a sister.

[00:25:42] Until I became keenly aware of my own default attachment style. I didn’t even realize that that was me too, but I also grew up with a more avoidant attachment style. And so if I was to do this self concept exercise a few years ago, I don’t think I would have labeled things like mom or like [00:26:00] sister or like daughter.

[00:26:01] And it’s interesting because I’ve had friends of mine who have different forms of attachment do these exercises without telling them what it’s supposed to reveal. And I find that most people would put at least a couple of their roles in life. And so I was like, Oh, well, that shows me that that was an area that was deficient in my own identity.

[00:26:19] LM: Okay. Disorganized in personal health and habits.

[00:26:22] JH: That’s right. So disorganized in personal health. Very chaotic in terms of how they try to reach their goals. So one day they’re going to say, I’m going to do this. Like I’m going to do intermittent fasting. But then the next day they’ll wake up and say, that’s a crap idea.

[00:26:33] They’re constantly switching, which makes it so much harder to have success because you don’t give anything enough time to actually sit and say, is this going to work for me or not? But the unfortunate thing is, and they’re much more likely to like, double back on their thoughts and say, Yeah, see? Like, why do I even bother?

[00:26:48] Like, I’m not making any headway at all, so I shouldn’t even put this goal on my list and then just throw out the goal. Okay, I have a sub question

[00:26:55] LM: about that, which is, the way we’re raised in our family units and by [00:27:00] our caretakers as children is forming these attachment habits, but can society and culture also be forming them?

[00:27:04] Because when you say that, I’m like, is this social media culture where you’re like, try this now? Try this thing. Try this diet. Try this exercise. Try this supplement. Can that be creating attachment

[00:27:14] JH: problems for people? Definitely. And I think that that’s something that we also don’t talk about so much is how much our earlier attachment styles get reinforced by obviously our current environment and also of course social media.

[00:27:28] I mean, it’s just so hard not to, this is not to disparage social media. Like I love social media. I think that it obviously has its place and lots of pros, but the cons are the comparisons are just so easy. It’s just so easy. And it’s just so easy to go look at somebody else’s highlight reel and say, oh, well, why isn’t that happening for me?

[00:27:45] LM: Well, and I also wonder if we’re all becoming a little bit more disorganizedly attached because we’re confronted with so much competing information on a day to day basis.

[00:27:56] JH: Oh, for sure. There’s been a lot of research recently about how, [00:28:00] not that you all are developing ADHD, the actual clinical condition, but that all of our brains now are being wired in a way that attention is so hard to achieve, right?

[00:28:11] We’ve all seen it. Like you’re watching the news on TV and there’s like a ticker on the bottom and there’s like these little flashing like, Pop ups in the corner. And sometimes I can’t focus on what the main message is. I’m like, wait, what are they talking about? Cause I like saw the little pop up everything is that way.

[00:28:26] Now, even when you’re looking on social media, you’re like, maybe like searching a hashtag and you see like five different pieces of advice for the same topic. And you’re like, well, I don’t know which one they all seem like they’re relevant. They all seem credentialed. They all have huge followings. Like who am I supposed to listen to?

[00:28:40] So you’re right. In that maybe all of us are feeling more disorganized in our coping and our style of life. Because. It’s like that decision paralysis when you have too many choices, it’s too much information, too much diversity of information and advice. And that can be really hard for your brain to organize.

[00:28:58] LM: How would a securely attached [00:29:00] person show up with their personal health and habits?

[00:29:01] JH: I think that they’re more likely to be consistent and also believe that they’re able to achieve that outcome. They can visualize their success a lot more and They’re able to put in the time and not get so discouraged when they have a setback.

[00:29:16] Doesn’t mean that they don’t have negative feelings or negative thoughts, but it’s more like, okay, but overall, like, I’m going to pick myself back up and I’m going to get back on the horse. They have an easier time doing that than some of the other types.

[00:29:28] LM: Okay, let’s do friendships. How would an anxiously attached person show up in their friendships?

[00:29:32] JH: So friendships are very tough for anxious, attached people, especially when they’re not in constant conversation with them. They want to know that they’re friends. are okay with them, that their friends still like them. Maybe their friend’s having a bad day and they have this kind of curt conversation with their friend.

[00:29:47] They’re gonna think it’s about them as opposed to, oh, she’s having a bad day. It’s like, wait, what did I do to make her mad? Similarly, if you text somebody, they don’t text you back for a day or two, which can happen. Oh my gosh. I did something to upset them and then they’ll rapidly text them [00:30:00] five more times just to make sure everything’s okay or like even create a problem or pull at their attention some way to see if they’re going to respond, which isn’t the best.

[00:30:09] Okay. Okay. Avoidant individuals and friendships. They are such social butterflies, but at a more fleeting level, they really feel comfortable like dipping into. groups that even if people, they don’t know, but they also want the freedom to leave that group whenever they want. So I knew that this was a little bit of my avoidant attachment even when I was younger because I always wanted to drive myself.

[00:30:32] Like even if we So you could leave

[00:30:33] LM: whenever you wanted. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:35] JH: My friends are like, what are you doing? Like we live through this. three blocks away from each other. I’m like, yeah, but you know, I’m going to drive myself. You just really want to be able to have the agency to like take off whatever you want and not rely on other people to make that decision.

[00:30:47] People with avoidant attachment are a little bit discomforted when people want to talk about their feelings. As a child, they wanted to do that. Maybe their parents said, well, that’s not important. Or like, why are you doing that? So then as adults, they kind of emulate that. When other people [00:31:00] express big emotions, they try to exit that.

[00:31:04] conversation as much as they can. They don’t like to be probed either. So if you’re trying to ask a person with avoided attachment about how they’re feeling, sometimes they have a hard time even like finding the emotional words or they’ll just brush everything aside, like everything’s cool. Like, and then just change the topic or make a joke.

[00:31:20] So their emotional vocabulary is a little stunted just because they don’t. want to express so much, and they don’t like it when people do that either.

[00:31:26] LM: Which is interesting, because you were just saying that you knew you were avoidantly attached in this way because you always wanted to drive yourself, but you’re also a psychologist.

[00:31:33] Yeah. So that does not click with me as somebody who doesn’t like talking about feelings.

[00:31:38] JH: That’s something that I had to work on in my adulthood. As a child, I wasn’t necessarily validated for, Feelings discussions. I think that part of it is also because my parents were like, Hey, you should be just happy for the things that you have, which of course makes sense.

[00:31:51] Like my parents grew up in complete poverty. So they’re like, What are you complaining about? We have a roof over our heads like we have food. There should be no complaints. And it’s also kind of [00:32:00] generational, I think. But I think as an adult, I’ve had to work on my emotional vocabulary and work on my ability to tolerate other people’s distress.

[00:32:09] It’s almost

[00:32:10] LM: because it was like something that you lacked as a child. You focused on it and now it’s one of your super strengths.

[00:32:16] JH: Yeah. Which is so interesting because now I’m that person who’s like, Hey, like, I want to hear about your emotions or sometimes I’ll be like, Hey, my emotions matter and I want to talk about it.

[00:32:24] And that would not have been something that I would say 15 years ago, but it’s something that comes with awareness and saying, okay, well, here’s my default. And then. What do I really want my life to look like? Like, you know, how do I shift my attachment to a more secure style? But even today, like, there are times when I know that the shadows of my avoidant attachment still creep up, especially with friends.

[00:32:43] Like, if you haven’t heard from me in a while, it’s probably because I’m in a very stressed out time in my life, and I don’t want to burden other people, and I don’t want them to feel like, oh, wow, like, Judy’s being so dramatic. When I’m doing well, you’re going to hear from me a lot. When I’m not doing well, you won’t hear from me for a couple weeks.

[00:32:58] That’s

[00:32:59] LM: me. Yeah. A [00:33:00] hundred percent. And then I’ll come back online and be like, sorry, I was having a really hard mental health time for months. Right. Like once you’re done with you back for, it’s so hard because it compiles on itself where you’re like, well, now I also am mad at myself for not texting them back for weeks.

[00:33:13] I’ve been a bad friend. Yes. All these things. But yeah, I do that a hundred percent.

[00:33:17] JH: It totally makes sense that you resonate with that. It kind of confirms your pre existing ideas, right? Because when you’re in need and you don’t reach out, then that pre existing idea of like, well, people aren’t going to want to be there for me, you’re not going to disprove that because you haven’t even like tried to disprove it, you know?

[00:33:31] This is

[00:33:31] LM: a core part of your work that really resonates with me, which is not only are attachment cells shaping the way that we see reality, they are creating our reality because they’re, Causing us to interact with the world in a way that makes the world interact with us in a certain way. So they’re not only shaping how we feel, they’re shaping what we end up experiencing.

[00:33:50] JH: Yeah, exactly. And I think that bi directional process sometimes gets lost on people, right? They think, okay, well, this is my attachment cell, so it’s going in one direction. Like, my attachment cell affects, like, how I radiate [00:34:00] out to my life. But actually, it creates this reality. That radiates back on you, and you’re like, Aha, I was right all along.

[00:34:07] So then you get stuck in this way of thinking, in the same way of coping, even if it’s not really working to produce the kind of outcomes you want.

[00:34:13] LM: And, again, as we’re listening, if we’re like, with work, I felt like I resonated more with the avoidance stuff, but with friendships, I’m feeling more anxious.

[00:34:21] Is that normal?

[00:34:23] JH: Super normal, and I think that that’s been I’ve been missing in the conversation, too. People always think I’m supposed to be one attachment style, but you’re not. And sometimes in different phases of life, you can also be different because obviously our adult experiences will either more strongly reinforce certain aspects of our childhood experiences or maybe create a different type of reality.

[00:34:40] One example could be somebody who actually grew up with a very secure. Childhood and parents most of the time showed up in ways that were helpful, et cetera. But then in one of their most important romantic relationships, when they were a young adult, like that person was so abusive and so manipulative and it’s basically shaken their [00:35:00] secure attachment.

[00:35:00] So now when they’re in romantic relationships are always doubting the next person, like, is this just going to be utter chaos like last time? And so you’ll see that maybe just in that one area of life where they had a really profound experience that shook their. primary attachment style, that they’ll develop a second one that affects that part of their life more.

[00:35:19] LM: In the simplest of terms, could you say that attachment styles give language to patterns that we have so that we can develop awareness around them and act differently?

[00:35:30] JH: Yeah, that’s really what it is. Attachment styles are patterns. Attachment styles create certain models of thinking and certain internal models of who you are, as well as how people might respond to you.

[00:35:41] And so once you recognize that and you realize, okay, well, it’s creating these internal models, but I’m also then like creating this reality. Because of my assumptions, then it’s like, okay, how can I change my assumptions in a way that’s still realistic to what’s going on? I’m not just gonna go around trusting everyone, but can I create a more realistic [00:36:00] picture so that I can create the reality that I want?

[00:36:02] LM: Okay, disorganized in friendships.

[00:36:04] JH: Yeah, so disorganized in friendships, lots of mistrust, lots of hot and cold behavior, push friends away, test them, like, okay, well, if you really care about me, would you drop everything and, like, come to my house because I’m having a bad day? Oh, you’re not? Okay, well then forget it.

[00:36:19] Obviously you don’t love me. And then they’ll won’t call their friend for two, three weeks, but then they’ll start to get really upset. Like, oh, well, you’re not calling me back. And then they’re going to go and call the friend. Maybe they’ll yell at the friend, you know, or maybe they’ll overly apologize.

[00:36:30] You’re just not really sure what you’re going to get, but they constantly set up these tests, but the tests don’t really have right answers. No matter what you do, there’s a way for the disorganized person to say that wasn’t sufficient or that shows me I can’t trust you.

[00:36:43] LM: Because that’s the reality that they’re looking for.

[00:36:46] So you’re not going to be able to break. Through that.

[00:36:49] JH: No, no matter what you do. Like I love you. Yeah. Well, that’s exactly what somebody who didn’t actually care would say It’s always gonna confirm whatever they wanted to confirm and our brains do that And I think it’s [00:37:00] partially because our brains are more comforted by patterns.

[00:37:03] So even if the patterns are bad It’s like well, at least I know this pattern and I know how to live it You know, that’s why so many people get Attracted to the same kind of chaos and the same kind of abuse that they’ve always been predisposed to. It’s like, well, but I know how to work with this abuse.

[00:37:17] Right? Disorganized people, when there’s really a lot of calm in their friendships, it’s like, ma, something’s wrong. The other shoe’s about to drop. And then sometimes they create that very chaos they expected.

[00:37:27] LM: Okay. Secure in friendships.

[00:37:29] JH: Yeah. Secure in friendships. I think that people who are securely attached, they’re generally just more secure first in themselves.

[00:37:36] feeling like independence is a good thing, but also that interrelatedness is also a good thing. Like I can stay connected to my friends. I can still have my own identity and I don’t need to like overly check in with them to see if everybody’s okay, if they still like me, but I’m also not going to overly avoid them when I’m upset or when I’m stressed because I know that I can count on them.

[00:37:55] So, if you have one friend who disappoints you, it’s not like, oh, okay, see, all people suck. It’s like, [00:38:00] okay, well, that person’s disappointing, but you know what, I have this other friend that I can call, and I’m just going to focus on that now.

[00:38:04] LM: And then let’s just end with the classic romantic relationship.

[00:38:08] How would anxious attachment present in romantic relationships?

[00:38:11] JH: Yeah, anxiously attached people, they really need a lot of validation from their romantic partner. Okay, they didn’t text me as many times as they texted me last time. Yesterday, they texted me three times. Today, they only texted me once. Are they losing interest?

[00:38:24] They’re constantly. overly analyzing their romantic relationships. And if they haven’t heard some words of validation for a while, they think that that’s changed. How come when he left this morning, he didn’t say that he loved me? Did he stop loving me? No, maybe it was just busy or like, whatever. He just doesn’t have to be every single time he leaves, but the anxiously attached person will like read something into that and think that that means something about their relationship.

[00:38:48] The avoidantly attached person, they’re actually really great. In the early relationship phase, like charismatic and fun and they love it when things are light, but like when things get a little [00:39:00] serious, they get a little uncomfortable. They kind of want to take relationships at their pace. So if they pair up with like an anxiously attached person, the anxiously attached person might want more from them than when they’re ready for it.

[00:39:10] Like, I want to talk about our feelings. It’s like, no, I don’t want to do that now. Or what does our relationship mean? Like, are we A couple. Are we just dating? Are we exclusive? It’s like, I’m not ready to have that conversation. So they kind of want to take things at their pace and want to get intimate too fast.

[00:39:27] But then interestingly, if the person starts to go away or they start to lose interest, they all of a sudden bring out all of the goods again. It’s like, I’m going to go full force, like almost even love bomb the person, even though that has a negative connotation. But all of a sudden, they’re going to be that really amazing partner again.

[00:39:43] But that’s only if you’ve given them the emotional space. And act like you’re maybe not interested in them as much as you used to be.

[00:39:50] LM: Oh, no. So does that mean if you’re dating somebody and you’re recognizing, oh, maybe they’re avoidantly attached, if you back off, you can manipulate them into coming back to

[00:39:58] JH: you?

[00:39:58] Yeah. I think that’s good in the [00:40:00] short run, but in the long run, you’re like, I can’t keep doing this at some point. Don’t try this advice. It’s not sanctioned advice. No, but it makes sense, right? Okay, well, how can I get them to come back? Well, act disinterested, but then eventually your relationship won’t move forward unless somebody is going to give, right?

[00:40:15] But I think that the avoidantly attached person is capable of having a healthy relationship, but it takes recognition of what they’re doing, and they do tend to overreact. Want to take things more at their pace, and at the same time, they feel more comfortable if there is a partner who is more willing to talk about feelings than they are, because they need a little bit of a leader in that way.

[00:40:34] So it’s about self awareness and also finding the right combination. If there was somebody who’s like, overly anxious, I think that’s tough because that person is going to want so much emotional conversation and validation all the time. But if they’re with like a slightly anxious person or a securely attached person, that’s a good combination because they’re going to just push them a little bit.

[00:40:53] You know, like, I really want you to tell me what’s going on. You always say that you don’t want to talk about your stress at work. I want to hear it today. Like, tell me what it is, [00:41:00] you know. But if you push them way too much, that’s when they go away into their isolation.

[00:41:05] LM: I’ve heard that anxiously and avoidantly attached people should probably be in relationships with securely attached people, that they have way higher chances of success.

[00:41:15] Do you think that’s true?

[00:41:16] JH: I think in general, if you’re with a securely attached person, your relationship is going to have a higher chance of success in general. I think the anxious and avoidant attachment styles tend to attract each other because you’re looking for something in your childhood that you want to either replicate or find proof against.

[00:41:33] And that’s why they’re kind of attracted to each other the most times, but also they’re like oil and water, right? Because of what they’re core needs are and how they express and show up in relationships. But I do think that the anxious and avoidantly attached person can have a great relationship. It’s just about one, recognizing your own attachment styles and two, until that person is more healed and has done more work.

[00:41:55] Almost seeing their attachment behaviors, like love languages, like [00:42:00] the anxiously attached person is going to need some more words of reassurance and affirmation, you know, the avoidantly attached person, they’ll probably appreciate things that are more like acts of service where you like help them out by doing something.

[00:42:13] But they don’t necessarily want to just talk about all of the things that are going on. Like, if you know that they’re having a difficult time, they appreciate you just doing something to take something off their hands, right? And so I think that there’s a way to have a good relationship even if your attachment styles aren’t healed.

[00:42:29] LM: And because all of us can become securely attached, like if an anxiously attached person gets into a relationship with an avoidantly attached person, you can both become securely attached people. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. We love that. Disorganized in relationships.

[00:42:41] JH: Yeah. So disorganized in relationships, a lot of hot and cold behavior again.

[00:42:46] One day really wanting to be with the person, the next day saying like, I need space, like I feel suffocated. If the relationship is really calm, like if they’re in a relationship with a securely attached person, they sometimes will manifest chaos because they feel like the other shoe is going to drop.

[00:42:59] And [00:43:00] so then they start to concoct all these tests like they do with their friendships too. Like, okay, how much can I really get this person to prove that they love me? When they do have arguments with their partner, they’re the most dysregulated, so they have the hardest time coming back to a good baseline, and they’re also most likely to self sabotage in the middle of a relationship crisis, so if they’re having a hard time in a relationship, um, They’re the most prone to, okay, I’m just going to cheat on them, right?

[00:43:26] Because they don’t love me anymore anyway. But then of course, when you do that, you manifest the problem that you were trying to avoid because some people are going to say, you know what? I don’t care if it was only one time of cheating, like I’m done with this relationship. And then the disorganized person will say, ah, see, nobody sticks around anyway.

[00:43:40] So I shouldn’t even bother trying to create a connection with people.

[00:43:44] LM: I think I got really extremely lucky to meet a securely attached person when I was 21 years old and I’ve gotten to be in relationship with them, but I’ve seen parts of those disorganized I’m seeing and avoid it. Oddly, I’m not resonating with anxious despite self identifying as an [00:44:00] anxiously attached person for most of my life, which is because I’m an anxious person.

[00:44:03] And it’s interesting. Do you think that anxiety So that anxiety goes hand in hand with anxious attachment, or do you think that they just, like, they can be really different? Because I identify as anxious, but I don’t necessarily identify as anxiously attached.

[00:44:15] JH: So interesting. Yeah. So actually anxiousness and anxious attachment are not necessarily hand in hand.

[00:44:21] Anxiety is about a lot of different things. One, it’s about threat avoidance. If you’re a quote unquote anxious person, it’s because you’re trying to control things to the best of your ability and you’re trying to avoid threat. That also can very aptly describe the avoidantly attached person. And also what we find.

[00:44:36] Even in like later research about attachment styles is that when they first observed avoidant attached babies, they kind of seem like they were low anxiety. So like when you look at them behaviorally, it’s like they got it, got it all together. The mom leaves the room, the dad leaves, and when they’re like, I’m fine, it’s like, Oh, do you even care?

[00:44:52] So like, that was part of actually the hallmark, like first study of these are. Avoidant attached babies. Like they almost didn’t seem like they cared that much about their parents, but then [00:45:00] they went back and they measured the heart rates of these babies and toddlers when the parents left. And like, even though like outside they were like not showing a ton of emotion, their hearts were beating super fast, just as fast as like the other insecure types.

[00:45:12] LM: Wait, that’s me. A hundred percent. I feel like that’s me where I’m like, I’m fine. I’m holding it together. I’m okay, but inside I’m falling apart.

[00:45:19] JH: Yeah. And maybe you were. lauded for being the person who doesn’t fall apart, at least on the outset. I was. My mom was in

[00:45:26] LM: an accident when I was two and she was in the hospital for almost a year.

[00:45:30] And so she was like in my life one day and then out of my life for like almost a year and had rehabilitation, all of that after from when I was two to three. So I’ve always been interested in that, how, how that would impact my attachment.

[00:45:41] JH: Well, that’s so makes sense because you were forced to grow up super fast, right?

[00:45:45] Like you’re, you’re two years old, you’re supposed, I mean, your mom’s there and all of a sudden she’s not. So you’re like, Oh, I have to fend for myself now in a way. I mean, yes, there were other adults in your life, probably, but it’s a little bit different when you lose one of your major primary caregivers.

[00:45:56] You’re not able to maybe talk about it, but it’s still internalized. [00:46:00] A lot of people who have avoidant attachment when they were younger, they just lost access to adults at different times for different reasons. And so they get the sense that they have to be lone wolves. Like it’s almost like a survival technique.

[00:46:13] And also when you’re little. You don’t realize that things aren’t about you. Like your mom got into an accident, for example, clearly that has nothing to do with you why she wasn’t there. But as a child, all of us are self centered. I don’t mean that like narcissism. I mean that as like, you think that anything that happens in the world has some relationship with you because that’s just our concrete understanding at that developmental age.

[00:46:33] So that’s why so many people when they’re Parents get a divorce when they’re very young. It’s like, Oh, it’s my fault. Like I did something to make them separate. Even if you can’t label it or talk about it more specifically. And that does permeate into your adult relationships and also just like how you think about the world in general.

[00:46:48] A hundred percent. I

[00:46:49] LM: want to get into the things that happened in our childhood that lead to the different attachment cells. But I want you to wrap us up with securely attached people in relationships because we love them.

[00:46:58] JH: Yeah. Securely attached people in [00:47:00] relationships. Again, Great. If you come across one, it’s awesome.

[00:47:02] I got one.

[00:47:03] LM: I found one in a bar. Oh my God. See,

[00:47:06] JH: great stories still occur and they can start with bars, you know, but I think that the securely attached person is somebody who is able to regulate with another person, like Be involved in somebody else’s life, even when they’re having trouble, but also knowing that that’s not their problem.

[00:47:27] There’s a good distinction between self and the other person. Like, this is my issue. That’s their issue. I can be helpful to them, but not allow it to affect me and dysregulate me so much. If they’re in a bad mood, I care about that, but I don’t have to be in the same mood as them. A lot of times with the other insecure types, it’s very extreme.

[00:47:44] It’s oh my gosh, I can’t go near that person who’s Having a crisis right now, or it’s, oh my gosh, their crisis is my crisis. The securely attached person has good boundaries. So even if the other person’s having a bad day, they care about it, but it doesn’t have to be their bad day as well. And in [00:48:00] general, they’re very comfortable both being independent and interdependent.

[00:48:03] They’re okay with switching back and forth depending on the situation.

[00:48:07] LM: Okay, so what was happening in the childhoods? Of all these different people that lead to all of these different attachment styles.

[00:48:13] JH: Yeah, the securely attached person, they didn’t have perfect parents either. But I would say that it’s kind of like the 80 20 rule with parenting.

[00:48:19] Like if 80 percent of the time the parents were available, showed up in consistent ways, and generally were helpful when they were in need, you’re gonna have a securely attached child. And 80 percent of the time if they were doing that and 20 percent of the time they kind of messed up, made mistakes, that’s fine.

[00:48:35] You’re probably going to have a securely attached child arise from that experience. Avoidantly attached children, they sometimes were asked to grow up too fast, either directly or indirectly. They were kind of like the parentified child oftentimes. Their feelings when they try to express them were dismissed, like this is not important or like why would you complain?

[00:48:53] And in general, they were lauded and approved of for their achievements and the things that they did. People [00:49:00] who have anxious attachment. Their parents may have been somewhat inconsistent one day they were there one day they weren’t sometimes the parents seem really overwhelmed themselves. So then it made the child feel like, well, I’m not really sure what my footing is with this parent today.

[00:49:13] One of my cousins told me that it was really hard for them to know what to do. kind of day they were going to have, and they would just listen for the footsteps of their dad. And if the footsteps were like, oh, like happy footsteps, it’s like, okay, we’re going to have a good day. If the footsteps were like angry footsteps, it was going to be a bad day.

[00:49:30] And so this person has anxious attachment, and it was related to not really knowing what you’re going to get from your caregivers. That, I think, is a pretty hallmark piece of how anxious attachment develops. Also, just this feeling of. Maybe I’m not good enough. Maybe they were compared to their siblings a lot and always came up short.

[00:49:48] So they always felt like they had to get validation from other people to feel good about who they are. The disorganized attached person, sometimes it’s the parents abusing them, but other times it’s just [00:50:00] that they had a chaotic childhood for other reasons. But most of the times they’ve been exposed to either prolonged major stress or some form of trauma.

[00:50:08] So that makes it really hard for that rest and relaxation part of your mind and body to even develop. So their default then is fight or flight, which of course can’t be our default. That’s not a good default for human beings. The default should be rest and relaxation with like bursts of fight or flight, but instead they’re kind of the opposite.

[00:50:26] And so because of that chaos in their childhood and because of the potential traumas, their nervous systems are also more likely to be at a default mode of dysregulation.

[00:50:37] LM: Can we have different key caregivers teasing out different attachment styles? Like, I resonate very much with the avoidant one for all the reasons that we’ve discussed, but also I very much have a caregiver who is in my life who I resonate with that footstep story completely, who it was a very anxious relationship.

[00:50:55] If they were in a bad mood, we were all in a bad mood. What happens when maybe one [00:51:00] parent is one and another parent is another?

[00:51:01] JH: Yeah, so that’s when you might develop a combination attachment style, and in adulthood, things that more emulate the relationship that you had with that parent will come up in that particular attachment behavior.

[00:51:14] So for example, if you had a father who Because of your relationship with them is more of like a avoidant attachment that developed. When you pick a partner that’s kind of similar to the father, you’re going to act more in an avoidantly attached way. So there may be certain people in your adult lives or certain situations that remind you of one caregiver versus another, and then that attachment style is much more likely to come forward in that situation.

[00:51:37] LM: How important is it to concretely identify, I am. anxiously attached at work. I am avoidantly attached to my friendships, etc. to move towards being securely attached across the board.

[00:51:49] JH: I think it’s important to know your attachment style because then you know how it manifests in your thinking and in your behavior.

[00:51:54] So I have a attachment quiz in my book, but it’s also available for free on my website where I actually [00:52:00] divide it up into the different domains of life. So that makes it a little bit easier. Like, okay, all the questions about work seem to say that I’m more of an anxious attachment style. All the ones about relationships tend to say that I’m more of avoidant attachment style.

[00:52:10] That knowledge is important because it means that your thinking and your worldview about those different areas of your life are going to be different, and they fundamentally will manifest different things if you don’t attend to them.

[00:52:20] LM: And if you’re a parent listening and you’re getting stressed out, I know that you said 80 20, but is there anything concretely we could be doing to tip the scales towards Securely

[00:52:31] JH: Attached?

[00:52:32] Definitely. Just showing up. Almost all children, they just want you to be around. They just want you to be there. You don’t have to give them lavish gifts. You don’t have to overly laden the praise. It’s just being present, like just sitting next to them, just showing up and showing them that they have your attention.

[00:52:50] I think that that’s a hard thing when we talked about just so many things, grabbing our attention at all times, but. When you’re spending quality time with your child, are you also looking on your [00:53:00] phone, at social media, or are you saying, okay, well, this is the one hour, 20 minutes, whatever time you have for that day, where it’s all about them and that’s it.

[00:53:08] And when they do express distress or insecurity or say that they have negative feelings, feelings. Even if you don’t agree with them, can you sit there and just say, yeah, I understand what you’re saying. I mean, I’ve heard parents will say, Oh my gosh, you know, this child is complaining so much about their friendships and it just seems so dramatic.

[00:53:26] And I want to tell them that none of this matters, but it matters to them, right? So even if internally, you’re like, I don’t get this drama, just at least showing up and saying, okay, I hear you like you’re upset about it. I get it. You don’t have to agree with it, but making comments about their feelings not being important or that they shouldn’t feel a way about a certain thing, that kind of judgment will more likely lead to insecure attachment or them closing off.

[00:53:49] And then I would say it’s also just demonstrating your own. Ways of coping that are healthier. It’s not about hiding your own problems from the child. Sometimes people will say, well, I just [00:54:00] don’t tell my child my problems, but your child can sense something is off. So it might be a better approach to say, hey, mommy’s having a pretty tough day right now.

[00:54:09] So I’m sorry if I was short with you earlier, but I’m working on it. It’s not your problem. Mommy’s trying to find a way to calm down. Part of the issue is that sometimes children feel responsible for their parents feelings. It’s kind of a one two thing. It’s like expressing that you’re having a difficult time, but also making sure that they know, you’ve got this, you’re working on it, as opposed to, I’m having these bad feelings, and then the child’s saying, oh my gosh, I have to fix my mommy so she’ll be nice to me.

[00:54:31] LM: What about with divorce? Is there anything that parents can do to make sure that that doesn’t have a negative attachment impact on their children?

[00:54:38] JH: Definitely. One is just saying, almost like a broken record at various times, like, this has nothing to do with you. This is about us. We love you just the exact same.

[00:54:49] You had nothing to do with it. That’s really important and children need to be told that multiple times because that idea will just keep coming back in their heads that they did something about it to cause this. And so you want to make sure that they don’t feel that [00:55:00] way. But secondly, it’s just important to allow them the space to express their frustrations.

[00:55:05] Sometimes parents, especially because they’re also a little dysregulated during divorce, it’s stressful for them, they’ll say, I don’t want to hear that from you right now. Mama feels really guilty already and the more you say it makes me feel more guilty. But then you’re back in that situation where the child feels responsible for your feelings, and so you have to tolerate your own distress listening to your child be upset about the divorce.

[00:55:23] You have to expect that that’s going to happen probably for most children, and just say, okay, like, we’re not getting back together, but I totally hear you. Like, I get it, and you can talk to me as much about it as you want.

[00:55:36] LM: Okay, so let’s get into healing. Yeah. Let’s all become securely attached. Okay. So you have so many practical exercises in your book, which is one of the things that I really, really love about it.

[00:55:45] It just grounds everything in like, here’s what you can actually do. So step one is identify your different attachment styles, and again, they can be different in different facets of your life. Yep. But let’s say we identify that we are anxiously attached at work or something like that. [00:56:00] If we’re anxiously attached at work and we’re anxiously attached in our friendships and we’re anxiously attached in our relationships.

[00:56:04] Would there be different ways to become securely attached if it’s in different facets of our life?

[00:56:10] JH: Not necessarily. It’s more about applying them in those situations. What really grounds the different attachment styles is different types of worldview. So each attachment style essentially has four different types of self statements that are most associated with that attachment style.

[00:56:25] So for example, somebody who has anxious attachment, they might feel like, uh, Other people are more worthy than me or other people’s problems are more important than mine. These kinds of ideas will permeate all of your different domains of life, whether it’s work or friendships or romantic relationships.

[00:56:40] So it’s like, what about the world that the other people are more important than you? Like, how do I deal with that? deal with that. What about the worldview of, I have to analyze everything and overanalyze everything because that’s another default worldview of the anxiously attached. Basically, for each attachment style, there’s these four different aspects of worldview.

[00:56:56] You may find that you’re all four or you may find, wow, out of the four, I’m really only two [00:57:00] of them, but it’s very strong. Then you can really focus on the techniques that work specifically to undo that worldview and to create a more secure one.

[00:57:06] LM: Could you share one or two techniques that you found to be the most resonant in your practice with all the people who have the different attachment styles, two for anxious, two for avoidant, two for disorganized?

[00:57:17] JH: Yeah, the grounding idea for all of these techniques is essentially a form of reparenting. So it’s like, okay, I didn’t get certain things from my childhood. It’s not about blaming your parents. Like most of the times they were trying to do the best they could. But they have their own stuff. They have their own insecure attachment, maybe their own intergenerational trauma.

[00:57:34] So how can I essentially, as my adult self, become that parent that maybe I needed, but didn’t get all the time, right? So it’s about getting in touch with your inner child. It’s about getting in touch with that metaphorical little you that still lives within all of us and has unmet needs and desires that they’ll shut away because they didn’t think society or people wanted to hear about it.

[00:57:54] And it’s saying, Hey, as my adult self, I’m much more capable, I’m competent. I’m the most resourced, I’m the best [00:58:00] person for this because I know myself from the beginning of life to now. And I have the agency and the ability to provide my inner child what it wants and to be able to allow it to express itself fully so that I can do things in my life that I’ve always wanted.

[00:58:14] And so that’s really the grand idea behind all the techniques. But for anxiously attached people, two of my favorite techniques is one, like really focus on getting to know yourself. One thing that. Anxiously attached people do is that they always prioritize other people’s feelings before their own, and they also have a hard time being alone.

[00:58:32] They have a real fear of being alone for too long, to the point where they’ll commit to not very fun things just so that they don’t have to be alone. So, one of my favorite exercises for my patients who anxious attachment is to like take themselves out on a date. And you don’t have to like take yourself to like a three course meal right away because that’s so anxiety provoking for them, but it’s like go to a coffee shop for 20 minutes, just sit there, don’t take out your phone, don’t be hiding behind your phone, like literally just sit there and [00:59:00] have your coffee and look around.

[00:59:01] And then if that’s okay, the next day you’re going to do something else where you’re out by yourself for an hour in a public place. And eventually, yeah, you take yourself to an amazing, nice restaurant, have a three course meal by yourself, but don’t take out your phone. Wait.

[00:59:13] LM: Is the fact that I love dining alone another sign that I’m probably not anxious like that?

[00:59:17] Yes. I know. You’re like excited about it. I know. I love it. It’s one of my favorite things to do. Oh, me too. I love conversation. And also, I feel responsible for everybody else having a great time all of the time, so I put a lot of conversational pressure on myself. Yeah. Eliminating that from a meal is just.

[00:59:34] freeing for me. So I’m like, oh, I just get to enjoy the food, the atmosphere. That’s also why I, like getting together with a girlfriend to work where you work on your computer for a little bit and then somebody says something and you go back to your computer. So there’s no conversational pressure, but you get to enjoy the social company.

[00:59:51] But I’m working on that too because I know that I need to not feel responsible for everybody else’s happiness all the

[00:59:56] JH: time. And that might be like the parts of you that has that anxious attachment of [01:00:00] like, I want everyone to be happy all the time, you know? So maybe that’s like a little bit of that combination type showing up.

[01:00:04] I love

[01:00:05] LM: how clear you’re making it, how complicated all these things are, because I do think there has been this like buzzfeed quiz notion of, are you anxiously attached? Are you avoidantly attached? No, it’s all the same. All of these different things because we’re complex and nuanced people.

[01:00:17] JH: Exactly. You can’t just fit you into like one of four boxes.

[01:00:20] Yeah. That’s too simplistic, you know? And

[01:00:21] LM: three boxes as we were talking about it culturally, too, which is crazy. Okay, so we’re going out to dinner, if we’re anxiously attached, what’s another technique you

[01:00:29] JH: love? Okay, so like the anxiously attached person, when they’re thinking about their self identity development, oftentimes it is really relational.

[01:00:39] Being able to, well, just really communicate their own needs, right? It’s always about other people’s interests, other people’s wants. Communicating their needs assertively is like another big reparenting tool for anxiously attached people. They’re always the people who are like, okay, I’m going to say yes to everything.

[01:00:54] I don’t want anybody to be upset. I want to be there for everyone. And then they overwhelm themselves. So it’s about learning to [01:01:00] have assertive communication of, hey, no is a complete sentence. It’s not no, but I’ll do it tomorrow. It could be just. No. I can’t. But it’s so hard for the anxiously attached person.

[01:01:10] It’s so hard.

[01:01:11] LM: I can picture so many friends absolutely dying at the idea of saying that. They just can’t do it. Yeah.

[01:01:15] JH: Yeah. It’s like, what? No. But I think practicing. I always

[01:01:18] LM: tell those friends, practice with the people you feel really, really, really safe with. And then you can build up to work

[01:01:24] JH: or a scary boss or whatever.

[01:01:25] But practice with your partner. Exactly. And also when you set good boundaries and healthy boundaries, people will start to respect them. Yeah. Like. They just don’t have that proof yet because they haven’t done it. Well, people are going to be upset. It’s like, yeah, maybe at the beginning they might be because you’re always a yes girl, but eventually they’ll say, okay, fine.

[01:01:40] They’ll do it when they can, or like they can’t do it this time. And people are not going to leave you in your life for it. And if they do, then good riddance, really, you know, like you shouldn’t have those people around, obviously.

[01:01:49] LM: Yeah. Maybe that’s one of the things an anxiously attached person needs to hear is like, if you’re having to work this hard to keep the people in your life, they’re probably not the people for you.

[01:01:57] And they’re probably creating that cycle [01:02:00] that we talked about where like. They’re bringing people into their lives, they’re having to cling to and cling to and cling to, which is reinforcing the notion that they need to cling and cling and cling to these people.

[01:02:09] JH: Exactly. Yeah, it’s like reinforcing their insecure attachment.

[01:02:12] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:13] LM: Okay. As somebody who’s apparently avoidantly attached, I would love to know

[01:02:16] JH: what techniques I should use. Well, one thing that we mentioned is that they’re lone wolves, especially during stress. So it’s about like starting to safely do these behavioral experiments where, hey, when you’re stressed, in that moment, not when the crisis is over, Reach out for support and like you said, it’s almost that formula of maybe start with people that you feel generally safe with, but like really actually doing it in such a way that creates evidence that you can look back on because obviously our minds will just reconfirm existing things if we’re not careful and just like only take pieces and reconfirm our existing ideas.

[01:02:47] So it’s important to actually write down a prediction of what you think is going to happen and then do it and then see what actually happens. So like asking somebody for support and maybe your prediction is, well, they’ll probably be a little annoyed. They’ll probably do it, but they’ll probably [01:03:00] do it because they feel bad or whatever.

[01:03:02] And then doing it and then seeing what that person’s actual reaction is and then writing that down and be like, okay, are there any discrepancies? Almost every single time persons with avoidant attachment will find that there is a discrepancy. But you’ll forget that discrepancy if you don’t write it down.

[01:03:16] You’ll be like, oh, well, yeah, like, but that doesn’t count because they’re my brother. If you actually wrote down your prediction ahead of time, you would have seen that you were even afraid of your own brother’s reactions, right? So, yeah.

[01:03:25] LM: Okay, I’ll reach out next time I’m stressed or anxious and I’ll write down my prediction first.

[01:03:30] Give me another one.

[01:03:30] JH: Okay, so another quick exercise is doing an activity where there’s no Achievement, no competition of any sort. People with avoidant attachment love doing extracurricular activities and even physical activities that there’s a goal, they want to go to a class or like, they want to finish a five miles.

[01:03:47] It’s always something that relates to like an achievement, but like, when’s the last time where. You’re just doing an activity and there’s no real way to compete or to like measure your success. You’re just kind of doing it. Obviously meditation [01:04:00] is one of those things. What’s the achievement of meditation other than doing it?

[01:04:03] It’s just meditating. And that’s why most people with void attachment hate meditation. So it’s like, oh, well, can you just meditate? And it doesn’t have to be sitting cross legged. It can be a practical meditation, like walking in a garden, but just observing what’s around you while you’re doing it. And can you find enjoyment and value in those activities?

[01:04:23] Really challenging yourself to start finding value in things that you can’t just check off of the list.

[01:04:27] LM: That has been a huge theme of my adult life. When I was a kid, I wrote in my diary, but I could only get myself to write in my diary. With the idea that somebody would find it like hidden in a wall in a hundred, two hundred years and publish it and they’d be like, oh, it’s like the voice of our time.

[01:04:43] Yeah. And that was it. I could only get myself to write in a diary if I could attach it to some sort of achievement down the line. Interesting. Because I couldn’t, Stay on the idea of wasting my time otherwise, if something wasn’t attached to achievement, it felt like an utter waste of my time on the planet.

[01:04:57] JH: Yep, for sure. Yeah. And so that’s [01:05:00] the challenge is like, is there value in just doing and just being? Well, and

[01:05:04] LM: I’ve had to train myself that I have value when I am just being. And so that’s why it’s like, it’s just so hard. It’s every little bit of time I can spend just being like, I don’t have to be doing something to have value in this air that I’m breathing on this planet has been a real struggle and also one of the most valuable things that I’ve been working on in my life.

[01:05:23] JH: And a continuing pursuit, I think, for most of us is like, just recognize, no, you really do have inherent value without achievement, a tough one. Yeah. Disorganized attached? Okay. So nervous system regulation tools. This is so huge because they have the most propensity. So a lot of times, people who I work with who have disorganized attachment, they’ll say, I just can’t find regulation for any consistent amount of time, but they also haven’t done like the real strategies to do that.

[01:05:53] So one thing that I talk about a lot is vagal nerve stimulation. It’s something that is very much tied to the rest and [01:06:00] relaxation part of your mind and your body. And it’s so much easier to access than people think. It’s like changing your body temperature, you know. Putting cold water on your face, even using the voo sound, which is just like voo, like this kind of glottal sound because it vibrates the vagal nerve, but being able to like really exercise these, especially in moments when you’re feeling dysregulated and then noticing how quickly you can get back to a state of calm, that’s a huge benefit.

[01:06:27] thing to work on. And you should just do it as a daily workout, even when you’re not having a chaotic day. It’s like, just going to be part of my self care, just going to be part of my morning routine, making sure to put that there. The other thing is really identifying areas of intimacy. And dedicating yourself to working on one at a time with different people in your life.

[01:06:47] People who have disorganized attachment have a hard time believing that other people can be counted on, that they can be trusted, so they haven’t really honed in on what true healthy intimacy really looks like. And intimacy can [01:07:00] come in all different forms. It’s not just physical intimacy with a romantic relationship.

[01:07:04] It’s emotional intimacy with a friend or a family member. It’s Intellectual intimacy, where you feel like you can share your ideas without being judged. For some people, it’s spiritual intimacy, being able to have conversations about, like, the bigger pieces of life, God, a higher being. It’s also about time intimacy, like, how much do I share of my time with a person, and how much can I get from that time by being with this person, getting to know them better, like, how much does that feel me and how I feel?

[01:07:32] I found it really

[01:07:33] LM: fascinating when I was reading your book and you were like, oh, there are five types of intimacy, and I never had it framed so clearly. Clearly like that. And my immediate thought was like, I wonder if so many of us feel that sense of being lonely even in a crowd because we’re not hitting all five types.

[01:07:48] JH: Exactly. And I think it’s also a big misunderstanding that people feel like your loved one should fit all five. Like, that’s such an unrealistic expectation. You just can’t expect one person to fill all your [01:08:00] buckets, right? But we still do that. And we’re like, oh, our partner is supposed to do that. It’s like, they don’t.

[01:08:04] They shouldn’t have to do that. So we have emotional intimacy, physical intimacy, intellectual intimacy, spiritual intimacy, and then time intimacy. So those are the five.

[01:08:14] LM: And the idea is you need all of those in your life, but they don’t need to all be coming from the same person.

[01:08:19] JH: Exactly. But disorganized people usually have not taken the time to think about all five.

[01:08:24] And they probably don’t have all five coming even from one source, like, for each, right? So it’s really about identifying people in your life who you like to cultivate. A form of intimacy with like, okay, well, this one coworker, I feel like we would have lots of great sharing of intellectual ideas. I’m going to try to do something to nurture that because I think that there’s a potential there.

[01:08:44] Or, okay, a family member, we haven’t done this a lot, but we actually have certain connections with regards to how we think about spirituality or how the world works. So maybe I should make some time to try to cultivate that with this person. And then physical intimacy. People think about that mostly [01:09:00] with romantic relationships, but physical intimacy can also be.

[01:09:03] Obviously among friendships or family relationships, physical intimacy can just be like sitting next to the person and feeling comfortable in the same physical space as the person. And like being able to say, I don’t need so much distance from you physically and I still feel comfortable. You know how sometimes there’s people who you sit too close to, you’re like, I feel weird.

[01:09:20] But there’s other people who you sit close to, you’re like, I feel comfortable. So it’s really about expanding your ideas about what that is too.

[01:09:25] LM: Would you say that all people are likely lacking some of these types, but disorganizedly attached people tend to be lacking more? Yeah. Exactly. That’s why it’s

[01:09:34] JH: like a good exercise for them most of all.

[01:09:36] But even when you’re securely attached, it might be a good inventory for you to do. Like, when’s the last time you really thought about it and say, well, where am I getting these forms of intimacy? Because all human beings need some form of connection from other humans. It doesn’t have to be a huge group of people.

[01:09:49] It could just be like two or three trusted people. But it’s really about the quality of the connection, right? And thinking about intimacy is one way to do that.

[01:09:56] LM: Is there anything that securely attached people need to do [01:10:00] technique or homework wise or should they just be like patting themselves on the back?

[01:10:02] JH: Yeah, so in my book I have a whole section about securely attached people and what you can do to like continue to hone your secure attachment. So I think that it’s always good to think about self improvement. I think securely attached people, it’s important to continue to work on your self concept and what that really consists of.

[01:10:17] You know, sometimes securely attached people also have difficulty understanding their inherent value. A lot of us do. So really understanding that. And then securely attached people also need to not necessarily feel like they’re the rescuer in everyone’s lives. Sometimes when they realize that they’re securely attached, but people around them are insecure, they start to get a little bit too involved in trying to heal everyone else.

[01:10:37] But you can’t really heal someone else. They have to want to heal themselves, and then you can support them as a onlooker, as like a cheerleader, but not doing the actual work for them.

[01:10:47] LM: Do you have concrete tips for either of those things? Because I think they’re both easier said than done. Believing in your own inherent value and then also stepping back and not trying to be the savior for everybody.

[01:10:57] JH: Yeah. So, securely attached people and [01:11:00] also all people, I think an important piece of the inherent value is doing a visualization of, you know, what your unconditional self worth really is. But one of the easiest ways to activate that is the loving kindness meditation. So this is sending loving kindness to a person in your life that you care about, sending loving kindness to somebody that you’re in conflict with, and then finally sending that loving kindness to yourself, even if you had a bad day, even if you treated somebody poorly that day, that you still deserve that loving kindness.

[01:11:28] There’s like different scripts, but my favorite one is try to visualize a person that you care about in front of you, and then imagine yourself saying to the person, I wish you health, I wish you happiness, I wish you will achieve all the goals that you want, I wish you well, you know, I just wish you positivity, and then repeating the same sentences to the person that you’re in conflict with.

[01:11:47] As you visualize them, and then visualize yourself, and then saying that to yourself. The last step is always the hardest for everyone. Like, they can wish their enemy loving kindness more so than themselves. So that’s something that we all have to work on, and [01:12:00] even securely attached people need to work on that.

[01:12:02] And then to not be the savior. Yeah, I think that that has a lot to do with being able to have a demarcation of this is my protected space versus other people’s space. One of my favorite things to do is to visualize essentially a ball or a ring of protection around yourself when there’s a lot of people around you in chaos.

[01:12:21] It’s permeable. You can reach out from the ring to offer assistance, but there is a demarcation of where you are and your own issues and problems that you’re already dealing with and what somebody else’s is. And so even that visualization of, oh, there is a space in between us, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t reach out, but it doesn’t mean that like she comes into my space because she’s stressed.

[01:12:40] This is still my space. And that can help a lot when people are working with a lot of dysregulated people, even mental health or medical health professionals, or just people who are doing a lot of self development for other people. It’s important to have that protection. Okay. Jen.

[01:12:52] LM: So we like to end with one homework assignment, but I’m feeling like maybe there should be separate ones for each attachment style, or do you [01:13:00] think there’s one overarching homework assignment that you could give for people who want to not feel like their attachment styles are having a negative impact on their lives anymore?

[01:13:07] But we like it to be something that people can do as soon as they stop listening to this podcast to feel an immediate difference.

[01:13:13] JH: I would say do the Wheel of Life assessment. The Wheel of Life assessments Really cool, because essentially you just take out a piece of paper, draw a circle, and then divide it into eight parts, almost like eight pieces of a pie, and then write down eight different important areas of your life right now.

[01:13:27] For most people, that might include things like career or job, physical health. You know, community or family, et cetera. Just write down like different domains of life in your life that are important to you. And then rate each of those little pieces of pie on a scale of one to ten. Ten would be I’m the most satisfied with this area.

[01:13:46] And one would be I’m not satisfied with this area at all. And then just from doing this really simple exercise, you’ll be able to see, oh, where are the parts of my life that need the most attention? Mm. And so once you do that, you can identify which part to [01:14:00] focus on more, and that’s probably the area where maybe your insecure attachment is showing up, or maybe you’re just not feeling super secure in that area for whatever reason, and that’s a great place to start in terms of actionable.

[01:14:10] Okay, clearly my family relationships is what needs the most help now, so what’s one concrete thing I can do to cultivate a better connection with some of my family members in the next 24 hours? So now, how can I use some of these more specific strategies for each attachment style to start undoing some of these worldviews that aren’t serving me?

[01:14:26] LM: Love that. And then the quiz is in your book, and it’s also is it drjudyho. com? Yep, it’s at my website,

[01:14:31] JH: or if you follow me on social, it’s on one of the links on my social, so you can find it anywhere for free, too.

[01:14:35] LM: Amazing. Can you tell us a little bit in your own words about your beautiful book?

[01:14:39] JH: Yeah, so the New Rules of Attachment are all about helping you to not only identify your attachment style, but really understanding that it can be healed at any age and stage of your life, and that, you know, There’s something that you can do today to start moving the needle.

[01:14:52] And that’s really what I want people to get out of the book is that you can literally do something today that will start shifting your thinking to achieve all of the goals that you [01:15:00] want.

[01:15:00] LM: It’s such a good book. It is jam packed with information and I so appreciate everything that you share and everything you’re doing.

[01:15:06] Thank you so much. Oh, thank you too, Liz. That’s all for this episode of the Liz Moody podcast. If you love this episode, one of the best ways that you can support the pod is by sending a link to your friends, your family, your partner, your coworkers, you name it. You’re helping grow the podcast and you’re helping the people you love change their lives.

[01:15:26] If you’re new to the podcast, welcome. I’m so glad that you’re here. Make sure that you’re following the podcast on whatever platform you like to listen on. You’re going to go to the main podcast page. That’s the one that lists all of the Liz Moody podcast episodes, and you will see the word follow under the logo on Spotify.

[01:15:42] And then there’s a little follow with a plus sign button on the top right of that Same page on Apple Podcasts. This way you will not miss out on any new episodes. They’ll appear right in your feed every single Wednesday and every single Monday. Okay. I love you and I’ll see you on the next episode of the Liz Moody podcast.[01:16:00]

[01:16:02] Oh, just one more thing. It’s the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.