“My Friend & I Are In Different Life Stages” + Your Other Toughest Friendship Dilemmas, Solved

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[00:00:00] LM: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we’re sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I’m your host, Liz Moody, and I’m a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Let’s dive in. Let’s be real, even the best friendships, sometimes even more the best friendships can be complicated and run into all sorts of tricky situations that sometimes seem impossible to solve.

[00:00:27] Which is why today I’ve brought in Daniel Byer Jackson, a friendship expert and coach. Daniel is the author of Fighting for Our Friendships, the science and art of conflict and connection in women’s relationships. She is a go to expert of friendship for the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, NPR, Psychology Today, Good Morning America, NBC News, and more.

[00:00:47] And she leads talks all across the country, including for the NFL, the NBA, and Etsy. For this episode, I basically took the friendship questions that I hear from you over and over, the ones that are basically the hardest to find [00:01:00] solutions for, but that we all face on a regular basis, and I asked Danielle for her expert wisdom, and she delivered.

[00:01:08] We get into how to actually make deep connections with people and the big mistake that most of us are making when it comes to finding best friends. What to do when your best friend has a baby or you have a baby and how to weather those big changes, how to deal when you and your friends make different amounts of money and as a result, want to do different things for fun, or you have Group vacation issues or dinner out issues or bachelorette issues.

[00:01:33] So much stuff around money and Danielle gave such good advice for it. Signs that you were due for a friendship breakup, how to make couples friends, and so much more. I am obsessed with this episode. It is so helpful. Danielle just dropped wisdom bomb after wisdom bomb. So let’s dive right in. One super quick note, I know that 50 percent of you listening to this episode do not follow the podcast.

[00:01:57] Take a second now to hit that follow or [00:02:00] subscribe button. It is the best way to support the podcast and it makes sure that episodes show up right in your feed. Go ahead, do it right now. I’ll wait. Trust me, you do not want to miss out on any of our upcoming shows. They are jam packed with science and stories that will change your life.

[00:02:16] All right, let’s get right into the episode. Danielle, welcome back to the podcast. I’m so happy to be back. How are you? I’m doing okay. I’m doing well. I’m better now that you’re here. I’m so excited to get into this. I was just telling you, this is an advice episode and I have so many tricky friendship situations that people are going through and I’m so excited to hear all of your wisdom about all of these things.

[00:02:38] I

[00:02:38] DBJ: will try my best to shed some light. Yes, let’s do it.

[00:02:42] LM: Okay, so let’s just dive right in. First question, I really want ride or die best friend girlfriends and I cannot figure out how to get them. Beyond the advice of just join activities, how do I approach conversations and make those deep, deep connections with people?

[00:02:59] DBJ: Interesting. I love that [00:03:00] because I think it’s what we’re all yearning for, right? Like meaningful relationships. Here’s something I’ve noticed about people who have a goal of having deep friendships is sometimes having that goal directly impacts the way that you engage when you have potential connections.

[00:03:12] So love that the goal is for more profound connection, but I would say two things. The first is make sure that you’re not secretly auditioning for a bestie every time you do meet people. Or oversharing when you meet people, and maybe this person’s not doing that, but sometimes we want that intimacy so much, we’re rushing, we’re sharing up front, we’re trying to establish trust by kind of manufacturing closeness.

[00:03:33] If we have a potential connection of somebody who seems kind of cool, we’re thinking, Oh, this could be the moment. This could be it. So I would say two tips for this person who wants to make that happen. Besides secretly auditioning people, we’re not doing that anymore. We’re just going to enjoy connections for what they offer.

[00:03:46] But the research finds that if you want to take somebody from an acquaintance to a friend, It takes 34 hours. Now, this doesn’t have to happen in like three weeks, but even the study suggests over a span of five and a half months. So I guess my [00:04:00] first tip would be give it time and let it breathe as opposed to letting that urgency drive, maybe manufactured closeness.

[00:04:08] So give it time. The second is to definitely show up vulnerably, but measure what that looks like to see and ask yourself. Why am I sharing so much so soon? Because I applaud the desire to go deep, but how does it directly impact the way that you engage? And then the second thing I would say is you can say that upfront to a friend.

[00:04:26] I think sometimes we try to play it cool, especially in friendship. We’re like, Oh yeah, whatever. Yeah. If you want to grab coffee, whatever. I don’t know. I’m low maintenance, whatever. Like be honest with what you want. So it’s okay. And the first couple of interactions to say, yeah, you know, I’m in a place where I’m excited about finding friendships that connect with who I am right now or how I’ve evolved.

[00:04:43] Or I’m excited to position myself to like meet new women. It’s okay to say that. Or if you like her, it’s okay to say, man, I really enjoyed you. I’d love to do that again. So that people know, because the research finds that people tend to like people who like them. So even like making it known, I like you might motivate people to buy in to [00:05:00] developing something.

[00:05:01] So I think those are some things to kind of keep in mind if your goal is more meaningful friendships.

[00:05:06] LM: How do we know if we’re auditioning?

[00:05:10] DBJ: Yeah. As we’re talking to them, we’re almost taking a critic’s eye of thinking about like her humor and her interests. So we’re making a checklist of like, okay, I vibed with that.

[00:05:21] I didn’t like that. If you find yourself kind of mentally doing the checklist of I liked that, I didn’t like that instead of just being present and just enjoying her and staying curious about her. And maybe it’s just a really great conversation on a Tuesday night. Maybe it turns into something more, you know?

[00:05:37] But I think. Asking yourself, do I find myself just enjoying her and being curious about her or do I find myself secretly checking off the list of ways that we fit and we’re compatible or not?

[00:05:47] LM: Are there any other qualities other than simply time spent that create that best ride or die feeling? Call in the middle of the night friendship.

[00:05:57] DBJ: Yeah, so I actually developed this framework. It’s called the three [00:06:00] affinities of female friendship. And based on the research that I’ve seen over the past six years, there are three things that make women feel really close to one another. And if these three things aren’t present, it accounts for some tension we might feel in the friendship.

[00:06:12] So those three things are feelings of symmetry, which includes reciprocities, a feeling of, like, egalitarianism, meaning we’re equal. And then the second thing is support. Because the research shows that the number one thing women look for in their same sex friendships is emotional support. So, I’m looking for ways I can show her I’ve got your back, or I can connect you with resources.

[00:06:31] How am I showing I can support you? And then the last would be secrecy, which is not just literal secrets, but kind of the essence of secret sharing, like being in a vault with somebody. Women like feeling like We’re in this mutually exclusive vault where we’re each engaging reciprocally in self disclosure because sharing is the glue of women’s friendships.

[00:06:52] It’s how we establish and negotiate trust. So how can I look for moments that are appropriate to share of myself and to show her that she’s safe to [00:07:00] share of herself? So those three things when they’re present make us feel like we’re really close. Secrecy, support, and symmetry.

[00:07:06] LM: I love that so much. Okay, I have some specific questions about that.

[00:07:11] Is there any way that we can make somebody else feel safe to share their secrets with us? I feel like I can come in and be vulnerable and be open, but how do I create the space where somebody else feels okay doing that, too?

[00:07:22] DBJ: That’s such a good question because there’s so much that we can do. And then a lot of it is we bring our own personal stuff to a friendship.

[00:07:27] So if she’s been through things before you, she might be reluctant and it’s not a you thing, but there are tangible things we can do. If you want to show somebody, Hey, you’re safe with me and you can open up here and you’ll be okay. The first is to not tell your other friends business to her. Because a lot of times we just think.

[00:07:45] For us, this singular relationship, and you don’t notice that a lot of the takeaways she has about your character and who you are and a preview for the experience of being your friend is what she observes if I treat your other friends. So if you’re saying like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t tell you my friend Kara, her and her [00:08:00] boyfriend, you’re nodding.

[00:08:00] What comes up for you when you hear that?

[00:08:02] LM: Oh, I just think about this all the time when friends gossip. I assume they’re gossiping about me when I’m not there. And it makes me. It makes me uncomfortable. It makes me nervous about what I say to them.

[00:08:13] DBJ: Yeah.

[00:08:13] LM: And

[00:08:13] DBJ: I’ve surveyed women before, more than 200 women, they all said the same thing.

[00:08:17] That the number one new friend red flag is her gossiping about somebody else. So I don’t think it’s always malicious, but maybe you don’t really realize, but be very careful of what you’re sharing with her about somebody else. Even if it’s not negative. If it feels like, Oh, I feel like this was probably a confidential thing.

[00:08:34] Right there. She’s going to think. Oh, okay. Well, it would be foolish of me to share my stuff. The second is to be aware of your criticisms. I’ve heard people say, yuck, somebody else’s yum. Like somebody tells you what they like. So if she’s saying something, a goal she has or an experience she has, if the first thing out of your mouth is something resistant or showing disapproval, people are going to withdraw and retreat emotionally.

[00:08:56] So if she told you about something she did last summer or something she enjoys and the [00:09:00] first thing out of your mouth detracts from that, Oh, I hate that. Oh, you like reading? Oh, I’m not a reader. I’m more of a movie person. Like that’s fine. And that’s true. And that’s you being authentically you. But now this person feels like, okay, it’s not

[00:09:11] LM: fun to

[00:09:12] DBJ: share.

[00:09:13] LM: Where does that instinct come from? Because I’ve noticed that as well, even with partners, like, oh, I’m excited about this right now. Do you have time for that? Like, should you be prioritizing this over this? Do you know where that comes from? I think sometimes even people

[00:09:25] DBJ: do it in maybe an honest attempt to have some rapport, right?

[00:09:27] Like, oh my gosh. Oh, I can’t relate, blah blah blah. I hear you. But maybe it’s a timing thing. So for example, if somebody does tell you that they love to read and you’re more of a movie person or vice versa, it might be true that that’s not your thing. But instead you could respond with something like, okay, what’s your favorite genre?

[00:09:45] Oh, history. Oh my gosh. I love history too. Now I prefer to watch it. But oh my god, I love history too. Okay, because now it creates a certain affection in you for me. And again, we not only like people who are like us, but the research shows that we like [00:10:00] people who are like us. It’s called homophily. We tend to congregate with people who we feel are the same.

[00:10:06] So, especially in our initial interactions, one of your first jobs should be to highlight the ways In which you’re the same. So still be authentically you. It’s okay if I prefer movies, but I don’t have to lead with, oh,

[00:10:18] LM: yeah, we’re so different. Like there’s gonna be ways that you can be looking for those ways in which you’re the same versus looking for the ways in which you’re different.

[00:10:26] Especially

[00:10:26] DBJ: when the friendship is new or feeling each other out. You want me to leave feeling like, oh my gosh, she gets me. It goes back to that symmetry component we talked about earlier. So

[00:10:33] LM: just being mindful. Okay. So that’s a way of getting people into the secrets part a little bit more. Is there any way to.

[00:10:40] Get people to those other two, to symmetry and support.

[00:10:43] DBJ: Yeah. So for support, this sounds so basic, but we don’t do it. But the thing about support is even though it’s the number one thing we look for in friendships, we don’t often define what that means. It’s so subjective. So for me, I feel supported when X, Y, Z.

[00:10:58] But I think we assume that [00:11:00] other women should know and I shouldn’t have to spell it out because you’re another woman and you’re my friend. So I shouldn’t have to say what I need. And I get that, right? We want to feel like. Me not saying it and you just knowing is evidence of how well you know me. So if I have to articulate it, it somehow detracts from the chemistry we’re supposed to have.

[00:11:16] But the thing is she’s out there floundering, not doing a good job of providing adequate support. And you’re sitting here stewing and resentful because she’s not showing up. And so one of the ways could be to share with friends what makes you feel If you’re going through a breakup to say like, Hey, can you just come sit with me on Friday and let me just like vent about him for an hour.

[00:11:35] I need to get it out. You know, it’s not me giving a command or a rule, but it’s offering direction and the right people want the data on how to love you well. So you shouldn’t feel like you’re burdening them or directing them. They want that information. So one thing that might be helpful is to stop believing that she ought to know because that’s just not true.

[00:11:53] LM: Conversely, is that a good thing to ask? Like what’s the best way to support you in this situation? 100%.

[00:11:59] DBJ: If she’s [00:12:00] sharing about some kind of hardship, it’s totally okay to say, Oh God, that sounds really hard. What do you need right now? What do you need most right now? And then I trust her to tell me what that is, right?

[00:12:12] So if she’s telling me, honestly, I think maybe just some space or maybe some, okay, I trust you. I’m here for you. And then maybe I follow up. But I think that’s an act of care to show I care so much. I want you to tell me. How to show up for you, right? Instead of just assuming it. Opening that line of communication would be super helpful.

[00:12:28] LM: Is symmetry probably connected to what we already talked about where you’re looking for those ways in which you’re similar versus looking for the ways in which you’re different?

[00:12:35] DBJ: Yes. So highlighting the ways that you’re the same. And this is not just for new friendships, but even in existing friendships, because one of the things I often hear is, Oh, she’s so different.

[00:12:42] We’re not like vibing like we used to, so much has changed. And yeah, sometimes that is a sign like maybe this friendship, it’s time to sunset it or whatever. But a lot of times we might just need to find. New terrain on which we are connected, right? So I often hear it when like a friend goes and has a baby or gets married.

[00:12:58] Things are so different. Well, let’s give [00:13:00] ourselves some grace. We’ve never had practice being friends like this before. What are the ways we still are the same? What are the things that have not changed about her? So sometimes it helps us to know how to recalibrate when we do feel like things are off and we’re so different.

[00:13:13] LM: Okay, that’s perfect because I have many questions about that type of situation. Let’s do, as a childless woman in my 30s, I’ve been struggling to navigate friendships with my friends who become mothers. I want to respect their desire for time with their families so I don’t reach out, but then I find they aren’t reaching out to me either.

[00:13:31] What do I do?

[00:13:32] DBJ: Okay, that’s so hard. Whenever I have an event or something like that and we do Q& A, it never fails that somebody raises their hand and asks that question. I’m a child free woman and I don’t know what to do about it. I feel like the only one. And the first thing I say to her is, if you’re a child free woman, raise your hand.

[00:13:47] Over half the room, every time. So you’re in good company. There are a lot of women who have this same lifestyle and are looking for women who get it. I will say this as a woman with two children under five. Okay. It really does take up a lot of her [00:14:00] time and brain space to have to show up in so many ways, psychologically, physically, emotionally for these little people.

[00:14:06] Right? So we’ll give her that grace. But one way that you can maintain a friendship that feels disconnected, one is to remember that it’s temporary. So it’s not always going to be so demanding, especially if she’s got littles. Two is to make sure you position yourself for friends who are also child free.

[00:14:21] There’s research that finds that people who have relational diversity are happier. So that means you have the mom friend and the happy hour friends and the church friends and the whatever friend. So it’s okay to have this mom friend and you can appreciate that, but also having somebody who can affirm that aspect of your lifestyle and identity.

[00:14:40] People who get it. They have more availability. They can be spontaneous, and the conversation’s not always about butt cream and diaper rash. You know what I’m saying? So, position yourself to invite other people who get it, but I would ask for grace in not faulting her for being less available, a little less communicative, because that does happen.

[00:14:56] And finally, if you do notice that, she’s not showing up in the same way she used [00:15:00] to to say so. In every other relationship, it’s normal to have these moments where we talk about our progress. So, At work, you have performance reviews. How am I doing? With your boo? Babe, we’re feeling disconnected. Like, we need more date nights.

[00:15:14] What’s going on? I miss you. But there’s something about friendship where we subscribe to the idea that it should just flow. And you have full permission to say, I know you’re on baby duty, but I miss you. Can we do like Friday morning FaceTimes for like 30 minutes? Cause I need to know what’s going on girl.

[00:15:30] How do I show her? I miss you. And here are some ways we can collaboratively figure out how to connect.

[00:15:38] LM: And that’s okay to do. I’m not a mom. Totally okay. And so I also get nervous about like, oh my gosh, you have so much on your plate right now. Totally. I don’t want to be another thing on your plate.

[00:15:47] DBJ: I’m so glad you said that because I hear that all the time.

[00:15:49] Well, I know she’s got a lot going on. And then I hear on the other side, moms say, My friend stopped reaching out. And so I think sometimes we withdraw for noble reasons. Hey, I’m not trying to be [00:16:00] another thing on your plate, girl. Do your thing. But it can be experienced as my friends forgot about me and they left me out.

[00:16:05] And so again, just communicating that, giving her an opportunity to say, actually, I am swamped all week. I feel like I’m not ready to even chat. I’m not myself until like Saturday nights when the baby’s sleeping. Giving her a chance to say like, this is what works for me. But we’ve got to get more comfortable with negotiating in friendships.

[00:16:21] It doesn’t have to be, this is what it is for her, so I guess I have to accommodate that. It’s okay to have a conversation around, okay, I can’t do weekends. I can’t do phone calls, girl, I get distracted. What can you do? We can negotiate, we have permission to do that, but I think we make a lot of assumptions, maybe in an attempt to avoid rejection, and then it’s perceived a certain way by our friend and it just becomes like this huge miscommunication.

[00:16:43] LM: That’s actually really, really helpful. What if it is your best friend and you feel left behind? You feel like they’ve entered this new phase of life without you. That is really

[00:16:54] DBJ: hard. I think it’s okay to say that too. To say like, man, I feel like everybody is moving on and I’m [00:17:00] feeling left out in the cold here.

[00:17:01] You can make it playful, but to give your friend a chance to offer that reassurance sometimes. To say like, Oh, are you kidding me? I think that you’re ahead. I mean, look at you crushing it at work because sometimes we put our life milestones in like this linear way and we’re like, Oh gosh, I’m behind because I haven’t done these progressive things yet.

[00:17:18] And so sometimes removing that curtain and letting a friend tell you like, Wait, are you kidding? And chatting through that experience, but finding a way to see that it’s not a linear path and to see how can I show up for her in these moments? And how can I, again, diversify my circle a little bit so that I’m reminded that there are other things that I have going on and those things are okay.

[00:17:39] So yeah, I probably would feel that way too if I’m the single friend with a bunch of married friends or the child free friend with a bunch of moms. I probably would start to look at my surroundings and from a sociological perspective, use my friend’s progress to measure my own. So maybe I need to put other things in my peripheral to see like.

[00:17:58] Okay. Wait, I am on track. I am okay. [00:18:00] So sometimes you have to be affirmed in those ways, but it might look like positioning yourself to invite new connections into your life to help you believe that, that you’re doing okay.

[00:18:07] LM: Okay. And then on the flip side we have, I’m pregnant and worried about how my friendships will change.

[00:18:12] I’m trying my hardest to commit to staying fun, but I’m worried that my friends will leave me out, especially if it’s around drinking. Help. Oh my gosh.

[00:18:20] DBJ: I know I’ve started almost every response with this, but you have permission to say so. Okay. Cool. I mean, truly, to say, I am really nervous that when I have this baby, things are going to change.

[00:18:31] I feel really nervous. Our friends want to love us well, and they can only do that if you give them the information that they need. But a lot of times for noble reasons, especially for women, we don’t want to make them feel uncomfortable. We don’t want to look like we’re being a downer. So we withhold it because I don’t want to make you uncomfortable, so I’m going to hold it in.

[00:18:48] But the right friends would have a proper response of, wait, why didn’t you tell me that? They want to know. To say to a friend, I just feel like things are going to change. I’m feeling nervous because I don’t know how things are going to shift. To give them a [00:19:00] chance to reassure you, to have a moment to collaboratively decide how can we stay connected because things are going to change.

[00:19:06] And I think a lot of us know that intellectually. I mean, we’ve heard that a thousand times, but when it actually happens, it feels so jarring. So why not buffer the shock of these moments by taking the power out of the fear by putting it on the table? I’m scared things are going to change. For them to brainstorm with you.

[00:19:23] Okay, well, can we go to some things that don’t have to do with alcohol? Or can we throw in that museum exhibit? Because if I had a friend who said to me, like, I feel like I still have to do fun things because I can’t drink. Now I’m mindful. Oh, you’re right. We are doing things that are really drinking based.

[00:19:37] I don’t know how to show up for you if you won’t give me the data that I need. And hopefully the right friends receive that well,

[00:19:42] LM: which goes back to. We want people to read our minds almost as a sign that they care about us so much, but we’re doing them a disservice and we’re doing ourselves a disservice by expecting that.

[00:19:53] DBJ: 100%. There’s this sociolinguist, her name is Debra Tannen, she calls it the birthday dilemma. When for your [00:20:00] birthday, you don’t want to say what you want for a gift. Because you’re waiting for the surprise of what they’re going to get you because it’s going to be evidence that they know you so well. But you run the risk of not getting the gift that you want.

[00:20:10] So you’re kind of in that dilemma. And we have to be more mindful of how many moments do we experience of that. Where I’m not going to say it because they should know me. And then I’m going to see if they do or not. But then they show up in the way that wasn’t adequate because they didn’t have the data.

[00:20:27] Friendship is probably the most ambiguous. relationship you’ll have. With a romantic partner, you know how to show up. With kids, with parents, like we know how this goes. For friendship, I mean, sometimes we don’t even know for friends. Sometimes we haven’t talked and we’re like, is she mad? To me, that means that it’s even more urgent that you communicate so that you can reduce the ambiguity as much as possible.

[00:20:49] But we have to talk about it because we don’t know how this is supposed to go. And so I feel like that should give you even more permission and courage to

[00:20:56] LM: speak up and say what you need. So what would you say to the person [00:21:00] who says, No, I want them to know I want this birthday present. I want them to see me in this way.

[00:21:07] DBJ: That’s really tough because I know that we assign meaning to certain things. Evidence of them knowing me is to know what to get me. I understand that. I think it’s a very romantic notion as well, but I would say look for the other ways that your friends show that they’re invested. That they show that they know you.

[00:21:23] This sounds so simple, but even if it’s sending you memes that you’re like, Oh my God, that’s so me. That’s her showing. I know she’d appreciate this. I get it for my birthday. I want my friends to get me things that I’m like, Oh my God, they so know me. Like it feels good. But especially around the birthday thing, I know there are so many fractures around birthdays because we feel like they don’t know me or they didn’t show up, but can you train yourself to identify evidence that my friend does know me?

[00:21:47] She is invested. She does care. It might not happen in the ways that you want, but if I have some evidence that my friends know who I am, they care, they demonstrate an active interest in my life, they’re attentive. [00:22:00] Can I find a way to be content with that instead of putting everything on this moment? What makes me sad sometimes is women who have friendships with people who have Given so much evidence over the history of the relationship that I see you, I care about you, I got you, you need something, I’m gonna show up.

[00:22:20] But we had our hearts set on this particular moment and occasion. They’ll do the thing and when they don’t, we begin to question and dismiss two years of history. of them showing, I got you and I know you and those are really tricky moments.

[00:22:34] LM: And I’ve thought about this a lot because I’ve talked about how I’ll tell my husband how I like anniversaries to be celebrated.

[00:22:41] How I like my birthday to be celebrated, or if I want flowers, I’ll say, Gosh, it would be so nice to have flowers on Valentines day and, People will write to me and be like, oh my gosh, aren’t you so sad that you have to ask for this? Doesn’t that mean he doesn’t really love you? And I’m like, no, it means that he loves me if he gets me the flowers.

[00:22:58] Right. If he spends the time [00:23:00] planning the anniversary that I would be really excited about. It’s so good. I do an anniversary, too. I just want to be very clear. He does our dating anniversary and I do our wedding anniversary, but If you give your friend the information of how to care for you, and then they use that information to care for you, that’s evidence that they care for you.

[00:23:18] I love that. You’re just not asking them to also be psychic.

[00:23:21] DBJ: Yeah. And also, maybe they don’t have that gift. Like, okay, I don’t know how you feel about this, but like sometimes I see these videos and content of people saying like, Oh my gosh, my friends take my pictures, they’re so bad. Like when I’m like, hey, get this picture, it’s like, And I’m like, but maybe she’s like, that’s not, You know what I mean?

[00:23:36] Like not her thing. So even the birthday thing, maybe she’s not good at it. Maybe I want to care for you, but I’m not good at doing it this way. But every single day I’m like making you laugh and asking about your health update that you shared. You know, so sometimes the thing that would make you feel loved is probably, just like the love language people talk about, it’s probably because you’re so naturally good at that.

[00:23:55] It’s how you express it. And you’re like, Ooh, I can’t wait to get this back. And that makes total sense. [00:24:00] But like you said, make some room for it. Maybe they need the data and then maybe they’re not really. I’m gifted at the thing that you want them to offer, but can I find a way to acknowledge or be satisfied with the attempts, which is hard, I guess, which is hard.

[00:24:15] LM: It is hard, but I love that. I struggle with jealousy at times around things that may come easier to close friends, like having more money, having kids, etc. As an unmarried person without kids, I’m always supporting them by going to their weddings, their kids birthdays, etc. I’m feeling forgotten and that the support is not reciprocated.

[00:24:33] Again.

[00:24:34] DBJ: Oh my gosh. So to me, I think a lot of this is cultural and not necessarily a reflection of your friend’s lack of care. But we have so much cultural reverence for certain milestones. Having a baby. We know what time it is. Get the gifts. You know, coordinate the shower. Getting married. We have so much cultural reverence for those things.

[00:24:52] I think we have to relearn other things to celebrate. All of us. Even myself. I have some single friends who are child free. [00:25:00] I mean, I’m not embarrassed to say I’ve literally had to take time to be like, Oh my God, like what are other things I can celebrate? Because I’ve noticed how it’s felt lopsided because I had a baby and I felt guilty like, okay, we have to have the shower.

[00:25:10] And she showed up for my wedding. Like I was very conscious of it. And so I had to be very attuned to moments to show up for them. I’ll never forget a couple of years ago, a friend of mine moved into a new apartment and she was just like, yeah, you know, Friday, I’m going to move. And I was like, do you need help?

[00:25:23] She’s like, no, I’m good. And so that Tuesday I showed up and I brought her flowers and she was like, What is this for? And I was like, I mean, a housewarming. You have a new apartment. This is so exciting. And she teared up and it just felt so good to show up for her, but she had been trained that her milestones weren’t good enough.

[00:25:39] So to her, it felt silly to say to me, like, I’m really excited. About moving and making this place my own felt small compared to me having a baby. So at some point I have to show her this is big too. I see you. I can’t wait to celebrate that. So I would say two things. One is for people who are married and and have kids.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] I need you to start looking for opportunities to celebrate her and for people who are child free and unmarried, I need you to get comfortable saying things you’re really proud of and stop telling yourself this is not as big a deal. You got a promotion, you need to open your mouth and you need to say, I am so excited about the fact that I got a promotion.

[00:26:17] I’m so excited I got a new apartment. You have got to stop being like, it’s not a big a deal. So some of it’s on both of us, I gotta say, that shining in front of each other needs to feel comfortable and please stop measuring Um, and then how do they get celebrated?

[00:26:32] LM: What about outside of milestones? I heard from a lot of listeners who felt like they were always the ones planning friend dates.

[00:26:39] They were always the ones texting. They were always the ones calling. And the friendship in general was starting to feel quite lopsided. What do you do in that type of situation? I

[00:26:48] DBJ: love that because this is like a top question, that reciprocity, which kind of lends itself to that symmetry affinity. Like things aren’t symmetrical here.

[00:26:56] I would say two things. The first is tangible. Let’s say [00:27:00] you guys go to brunch and this is like the 27th time you initiated brunch and picked out the restaurant. So maybe after brunch, we walk out to the parking lot, we’re laughing, we’re reflecting, we’re like, Oh, that was so fun. I might say to her like, man, that was so fun.

[00:27:12] And you know, I noticed that like the last couple of times I picked out the restaurant for brunch, but I’m sure you know some really good spots you want to go to too. So how about next Saturday? You let me know where you want to go. I am training you that you can do it too. And you have permission to leave here.

[00:27:28] And giving the benefit of the doubt that maybe she doesn’t know she has permission to do it. I’ll never forget a friend kept waiting for me to figure out what we were doing for the weekend. And I would initiate and I would plan. And so one day she was like, well, what are we doing this Friday? And I was like, I don’t know.

[00:27:42] What are we doing this Friday? You know, with a little sass. And she was like, oh, we’re I don’t know. And I was like, well, me, you can find something for us to do. And she was like, Oh, I’m sorry. I just, I don’t know. Cool spots like you do. Like, I don’t know anything fun to do. And I felt embarrassed because here I [00:28:00] am thinking, how dare she not want to contribute?

[00:28:02] And her feeling like, I don’t feel like my ideas are good enough. I can’t plan a night out like Danielle. I’m not going to take that risk that feels vulnerable for me. And so that changed everything. So can you invite your friend to participate in the ways that you like without it being an accusation?

[00:28:18] It’s an invitation. Nobody responds well to like, I’m the one always planning, so why don’t you? No one’s going to respond to that. Cause now I feel like I got called out like a child and now I have to do it instead of wanting to. It’s an invitation. Hey, I know I suggested the last couple of things, but I know you have ideas too.

[00:28:34] Next week and tell me where you want to go. I can’t wait. It’s going to be awesome. I’m training her. You got this. Okay. And then the second thing I would say is if you notice that you’re always initiating and that is frustrating, but are there other ways she contributes that maybe you’re overlooking cause you really want this one thing.

[00:28:50] So maybe she is always like covering. The brunch, when you guys go, she’s like, this is on me, or she remembers little things you said about your dad’s hospital [00:29:00] care, you know, and she’s like, how’s dad doing? Are there other ways my friend is showing me she’s in this maybe she’s not the initiator But i’ll end with this if you notice the momentum of the relationship feels like it rests on you That’s something worth noting.

[00:29:12] Because we all want to feel desired, even platonically. If you feel a friend is giving you vibes of, I can take this or leave it, then maybe start turning your attention to the women in your life who are pursuing you that maybe you’ve been overlooking because you’ve been fixated on getting it from this one friend.

[00:29:28] It’s a hard reality, but sometimes that happens.

[00:29:30] LM: I’m glad that you brought that up because I do think that one of the. Underlying feelings that people struggle with in this type of situation is, do I care more? Yeah. Am I more invested in this friendship than this person is? And that can be hard to suss out.

[00:29:44] Like, are they just busy? Are they just bad at making plans? Do I care more about the friendship than they do? Do you have any advice for disentangling those two thoughts? I do. They’re not

[00:29:55] DBJ: gonna be comforting though. So there’s the study, it’s very small. They found that only 50 [00:30:00] percent of our friendships are reciprocal.

[00:30:02] And it doesn’t necessarily mean that half my friends secretly hate me, but it means like reciprocal in terms of I see you as my number one and you see me as your number one too. The other half of my friends, it might be like they kind of see me as like their number seven. And you might see them as their number two or something like that.

[00:30:21] Which sounds harsh. If we just zoom out for a second, we think about over the course of this person’s life. Their social network has been constructed in such a way where I fall as their number seven. But if they are attentive, every time we get together, it’s a good time. They send me little texts. They ask me questions.

[00:30:42] They are inspiring me. If I get The things that I need and I’m satisfied. Does it totally matter that I’m not her number one? I know that doesn’t sound good, but if I’m thinking like, man, she’s a good friend to me. I enjoy her friendship and it adds value to my life. Can I [00:31:00] be satisfied with it? Or am I satisfied until I look over to my left and see, Oh, wait a second.

[00:31:05] She looks like she’s closer with Tiffany. Now I’m unsatisfied and I know that’s tough. I’m just saying I don’t want us to throw good friendships up by the wayside because we’re like, ah, I found out that she’s closer to somebody else. So now I don’t know what to think. It’s just something to look at.

[00:31:22] That’s all I’m saying is if I’m getting value, she shows up. I feel like she sees me and supports me. But then I discover I’m not our number one. Does everything fall apart? And I think this is best embodied by the tension that comes with bridesmaid selection. Because if I’m walking around during the course of our friendship thinking I’m like your number one, number two girl, and I don’t even make the cut.

[00:31:44] As a bridesmaid, we’re rethinking everything. Wow, I guess we’re not as close as I thought. Wow, what does that mean for the friendship? And research shows that mutual prioritization is very important to women and their friendships. So me feeling like we’re both our number [00:32:00] two, number two is important.

[00:32:01] Whereas a man is less likely to care. We don’t often hear men being like, I just feel like he’s not as close to me as I am. I mean, somebody tell me, has your man ever said that to you? Okay. You know, but for us, it does feel important because We are so close, we’re dyadic, meaning women tend to congregate one to one, while men congregate in groups, and that accounts for why our friendships are so deep, that secrecy privacy vault we talked about earlier.

[00:32:25] So if you start to discover she’s not in that vault with you, sometimes we don’t know what to make of it.

[00:32:31] LM: It also Begs the question, like, what are friendships for? Because what I’m sensing is a tension between my friendships are validating that I’m lovable, that I’m fun, that I’m a cool person, versus the meaning of my friendships is the value that I get in the time that we spend together.

[00:32:49] There’s research that suggests that you

[00:32:50] DBJ: only have the cognitive capacity for like five ultra close relationships, okay? And that when you get a significant other, he or she takes up [00:33:00] two of those spaces. Two? Because of all that’s required to like nurture this deep romantic relationship. Wait, so But I think what’s important here is, if you think about that like as a circle of like your five people, but There are multiple concentric circles outside of that, like these rings, think about it like that.

[00:33:15] And then the number of each ring increases. So I think the ring outside of that is like 10 people, but we’re not as close. Good friends, just not ultra close. And then so on and so forth. This is referred to as Dunbar’s number. This is his theory, right? And so I hope that shows people that like. It’s okay if we’re not besties, we can be like in the next ring.

[00:33:35] And sociologists refer to that as loose ties. So people who aren’t my besties, we’re a little bit looser, but it still offers value to my life because it shows that these people still boost our mood. And this is like very specific, but they found that you’re more likely to get connected to a job opportunity with somebody from your loose tie circle because they’ve got one foot in your world and one foot in another world, right?

[00:33:56] Whereas your ultra five people were probably better Doing the same things in the [00:34:00] same spaces. So like it still adds texture to my friendship landscape and the good news is it’s fluid. So I might have a friend who’s like kind of on the outer ring, but we like have some experience and now she’s somehow like in the middle.

[00:34:10] It’s all fluid. So people again with relational diversity are happier. You should be having lots of different kinds of friends at lots of different kinds of levels when our brain. Holds tightly to that idea, then I think you’ll find more Joy in your friendships that aren’t super super close. You can find a way to be satisfied because you have abundance So maybe I’m not getting everything from this one girl like I prefer But I’m getting a little bit of what I need from everybody man I’m getting everything I need from the collective as opposed to the singular Can I find a way to be happy with that?

[00:34:44] LM: And I also bet that would help with like Oh, these two friends of mine are hanging out without me, or I don’t want to introduce these two people because I’m nervous they’ll get closer than I am with either of them.

[00:34:55] DBJ: Yeah. And again, I get it. So I’m not saying that just shouldn’t matter to you. Like, yeah, it stings [00:35:00] a little.

[00:35:00] It definitely stings when it’s like, Oh, I introduced them and then now they’re on a cruise together. Like, what happens? I totally get it again, because that speaks to women’s desire for that mutual prioritization. So it feels disruptive. But can we find a way to still enjoy those individual friendships is all I’m saying.

[00:35:16] LM: Okay. I want to connect with friends, but it’s not in my budget to spend money every time I hang out with a friend. I suggest other options like pickleball, museums. Sit down dinners are not my thing. My friends have made comments about me being cheap and it hurts my feelings.

[00:35:31] DBJ: Oh no. Not the cheap thing.

[00:35:33] That is really difficult. This is tough because culturally so much of our social backdrops to hanging out cost a lot of money. And to me, I think it’s a lack of creativity because it just is our default to be like, let’s go to dinner. Let’s go to dinner. Let’s go. But I think we forget to like be creative.

[00:35:52] Like what are other ways we can enjoy each other? And so I think that especially because if she’s kind of hinted that it’s a financial thing [00:36:00] and your friends say it’s because you’re being cheap, it feels a little insensitive because it feels like a friend has shared with me, this is why I have to make these choices.

[00:36:08] And then they made it not safe for me to do so, or made me feel bad about it, like some shaming around it. And that’s really tough. And I’m sure those people are good friends and they love her. But I think that when we do start to diversify our hangouts and we realize we have friends who only want to enjoy us in this way, it does make us start to think, am I not enough?

[00:36:28] Because if you can’t enjoy me just hanging out on the couch, We’re going to a museum where most of it surrounds like good conversation and just our presence. It can make a person think like, am I not enough? Which is hard.

[00:36:40] LM: So does this person need new friends?

[00:36:42] DBJ: I think she should say, Hey, because of my budget and not in an apologetic way, because I’ve heard friends have the money talk and they feel so much embarrassment and shame around it.

[00:36:50] Hey guys, I’m so sorry, but I can’t do the bachelorette. I’m so sorry. I can’t. I’m not apologizing. What’s in my account is in my account. And that’s what I’ve got to work with. [00:37:00] So I’m not feeling ashamed about my position. So to confidently say, Hey, because of my budget, there are certain things that I’m prioritizing and I no longer feel comfortable, right?

[00:37:09] We’re taking power back. Now I can’t do this. I don’t feel comfortable prioritizing those big hotel happy hours. And I really want to like get back to basics. Like I like the museum. I like pickleball. That’s what I want to do when we hang out. And if you have friends who hear that message, they hear the heart of that message and are still like, that’s not fun, which speaks to us not having shared interests.

[00:37:30] Okay. Or, well, you need to step it up, which speaks to like emotional safety and a lack of respect for where I am. I think it speaks to bigger things. So typically we’re friends with people who we have shared interests, but if they’re like, I’m not interested in those things, that says something. Maybe we need to shift.

[00:37:46] And if I’ve shared vulnerably that that’s not something I can really maintain and they have no compassion toward that and are unwilling to bend and accommodate to that, I think that says something to you. So I wouldn’t necessarily say ditch the friends, but now I need to start [00:38:00] bringing people where we have compatible goals.

[00:38:02] Uh, cause so often we think, okay, is this a bad person or not? Are they bad friends or not? And we’re not going to vilify them, but it looks like our social goals aren’t compatible. So unfortunately when I socialize, this is not going to work. Their goal of socializing is different from mine, so I’m going to have to bring in people who I can socialize with and it feels good to me, and I don’t have regret afterwards for overspending, and they’re okay with that.

[00:38:24] So, again, I’m not going to put it on them as bad friends, but our goals aren’t compatible, so I have to find people I can enjoy these social things with.

[00:38:31] LM: You’ve talked about the importance of diversification in terms of your friends and your friend circle, but you’ve also talked about how we like things that are similar to us and we like people that are similar to us.

[00:38:41] How important is it for us to be at a similar socioeconomic class to our friends? Does that matter or should we be seeking out friends at various socioeconomic levels?

[00:38:51] DBJ: That is such a good question and one that I don’t get asked often, so I’m glad you asked about that. When people share similar socioeconomic statuses, they are more [00:39:00] likely to congregate because you’re probably in the same social circles doing the same social things.

[00:39:05] So it makes sense that we’re probably in close proximity to one another and have maybe similar backgrounds, so we’re going to be electing to socialize together. It’s less, uh, Common sometimes to be with people of different statuses and it’s less of an explicitly discriminatory decision we’re making It’s just when I look around my circle we’re involved in the same things There are benefits to diversifying in that way, but I think it would require more work flexibility accommodation Like we’ve done before if it’s fun for me to do these things and be in these spaces But this other person’s not naturally in those spaces or can’t maintain those things But this is still my girl.

[00:39:43] We’re probably going to have to do more work to be able to share those spaces together. But if I’m like, Hey, I’m invested in this friendship. So I’m willing to figure out how to modify and how to be together in those spaces, then I’m willing to do that work. But I think would have to

[00:39:56] LM: be more conscious.

[00:39:57] How do we know when a friendship has run its [00:40:00] course and it’s time to break up?

[00:40:01] DBJ: Yes. It’s always so hard because nobody wants to like realize like, Oh my gosh, this thing that I loved for so long is not working. There are lots of things. And I know the videos I typically see on social media, people are like, Five signs or five red flags.

[00:40:18] We all want a checklist because we want some security and knowing for sure, am I making the right decision? Tell me the five steps. Tell me the five things. So I recognize that. I can’t give a checklist, but I will say there are some things to me that I feel like are completely like unequivocal. One, if you don’t like who you are when you guys are friends.

[00:40:38] I’m sorry, I just don’t understand those friendships. If I hate that when I get with you, I don’t like the things I start to say, I don’t like who I am, my other friends would look at me like, what are you doing? I don’t understand that. Okay. Cause I think this relationship should be congruent with who I am as an individual.

[00:40:53] Right? So that’s one. If I find that I am scared to say my true opinions or be my real self because I’m going to [00:41:00] have consequences, whether it’s them judging, criticizing, punishing for me showing up authentically. That would be a problem. If you realize that you’re only in the friendship because

[00:41:11] LM: of how long y’all have been friends.

[00:41:13] That’s what I was going to say for your first two, like, I don’t like who I am with them. I don’t feel like I can show up authentically, but we’ve been friends since high school and I’m afraid to let this thing go or I want to respect the history of it. First, I want to validate that because

[00:41:27] DBJ: that is hard.

[00:41:27] If you’ve been friends for a long time, you’ve probably integrated your families, your mom knows her, so it feels like more of a risk to let it go because it’s going to shift a lot of things in your life to have this person who’s so deeply woven in not be there anymore. I think another thing that makes us resistant to letting go is we put such a premium on long time friendships.

[00:41:50] So you have people being like, I mean, we’ve been friends for 20 years. So we measure the success of a friendship by its longevity. So right there, you’d have to unlearn [00:42:00] that. Because you stay because you’re like, but this is a good thing to be able to say. Like we’ve been friends 20 years. If you’re dying inside every time you get together, I don’t really know how valuable that

[00:42:11] LM: is.

[00:42:11] There’s something else there too, though. There’s like this idea of not wanting to let go of that part of yourself. It’s not only just the brag, we’ve been friends for 20 years. It’s this person knew me in college. I want to hold on to that little part of college me as I’m getting married and having kids and my life looks so different now.

[00:42:31] Yeah, that’s really

[00:42:31] DBJ: good. I totally see that too. I would also offer that sometimes it doesn’t have to be all or nothing because people are like, you know, do I break up or not? Do I end it or not? Depending on like the severity of the betrayal or whatever’s going on and the intensity of it, sometimes it can look like an adjustment.

[00:42:46] Maybe she’s been my go to girl of who I talk to emotionally and who I vacation with and maybe we have to modify that. For me to still be able to find joy in it and we’re selling each other’s lives, but I don’t think it can continue to look like it did before. Maybe she’s not my vacation girl. [00:43:00] Maybe she’s like not the person I’m hanging with every Friday, but I enjoy her in groups once a month.

[00:43:04] So maybe we can modify before complete elimination. One thing to consider as you make this decision is there’s research that finds that ambivalent Relationships might be more physically detrimental than outwardly negative relationships, which you shouldn’t be in those either. But in layman’s terms, that means those friendships where you’re like, Oh, I don’t know.

[00:43:25] I mean, she’s cool sometimes, but I don’t know. That back and forth does some wear and tear to your body, to your blood pressure. So I wouldn’t. Just the

[00:43:33] LM: uncertainty.

[00:43:34] DBJ: Yes. That’s so interesting. So at some point you need to figure that out and it’s going to be really, really hard, but the short term discomfort.

[00:43:43] is worth the long term relief, which sounds really harsh, but I mean, at some point we would have to make a decision about how to move forward in that relationship. And the last thing I would say that, again, is like an unequivocal to me is if you ever notice that she delights in your [00:44:00] embarrassment or humiliation, which sounds like ridiculous, right?

[00:44:03] I’ve had lots of women tell me like, yeah, but every time we get in front of other people, she brings up that thing or she makes a joke, but that’s my friend. If there’s any part of you, Where it looks like she takes pleasure in, like, having little jabs after I told her, like, hey, that doesn’t make me feel good.

[00:44:18] That’s a no.

[00:44:19] LM: But I like that you mentioned after I told her that doesn’t make me feel good because she could be completely unaware.

[00:44:25] DBJ: That’s always going to be my go to is I’m going to assume you didn’t know. So after I tell you, like, hey, when we get in front of people and you make jokes about how I used to be in college and I’m trying to leave that me behind, I feel embarrassed when you do that.

[00:44:36] Your only response needs to be, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. I had no idea. I’ll never do that again. Yeah. And that, well, I didn’t know you were sensitive about that. That’s not going to work for me. There are other things to consider, but I think those are the signs where it feels like, okay, this is pretty unequivocal.

[00:44:52] LM: What if you’ve noticed one of those signs? You’re maybe ready to let this friendship go, but you’re in the same friend [00:45:00] group. Oh, gosh. Yeah,

[00:45:02] DBJ: that is really tough. One thing I’ll say is be really careful about ever making mutual friends feel like they have to choose, which I know sucks. I’ve never seen that go well.

[00:45:13] I’ve never seen giving an ultimatum to mutual friends. I’ve never seen that be positive. That’s because it feels like you’re taking away their autonomy by saying like, Hey, it’s me or her, and I’m going to put you in a position to have to choose. And maybe we wouldn’t say that explicitly, but when you do things like you keep sharing the negative things about this friend, to your mutual friends in hopes that they’ll start to see her differently and remove themselves.

[00:45:33] They have their own relationship. Or you invite them places and say, Oh, but don’t bring her. Uh huh. She can’t come. Yeah. I mean, if we stripped it to basics, if I feel like with this friend, I’m always uncomfortable because she’s always talking crap about somebody who is my friend and I’m always in a position where I’m cringing and I don’t know what to do, you’re not going to elect to be in that situation anymore.

[00:45:54] It doesn’t feel good. So you slowly start pulling away because it doesn’t feel good. And I know that [00:46:00] doesn’t feel very comforting, but for mutual friends, they have their individual relationships with this person. And I understand that sometimes we look at those mutual friends differently if the person, the friend we’re breaking up with, has conducted some kind of egregious betrayal.

[00:46:13] Then we’re like, What the heck, you’re going to take her side and then we’re looking at the friendship differently. I understand that and I acknowledge that, but you would have to find a way to acknowledge these friends have their own relationship with that person and I’d be making them make a choice around their own social network to say, you need to pull back from her and be friends with me.

[00:46:29] I’ve seen those people gradually get phased out of the friend group and a lot of times, especially in big friend groups, they prioritize the needs of the group. Instead of the individuals. I’m not saying they don’t care about people, but whenever there’s tension, people prioritize maintaining the ecosystem of the group, as opposed to, well, one person feels uncomfortable, so let’s all change.

[00:46:49] I don’t often see that happen, unfortunately.

[00:46:53] LM: So what do we do? Do we go to the Bachelorette? Do we go out to dinner and just kind of not talk to that

[00:46:58] DBJ: person? There are a [00:47:00] couple things to consider. Are you trying to engage at the same frequency and intensity at the group things as before? Because maybe you might have to modify that and say, I’m only going to go to the big things where I know we’re going to share space.

[00:47:11] That way it doesn’t feel as intense and awkward. So if it’s a baby shower or bachelorette, I’m going to go. But if it’s like a brunch on Saturday, I’m not going to go because it’s awkward for me. For her and the people in the middle.

[00:47:22] LM: But it sucks because you’re like, I want her to not go. I don’t want to have to have FOMO because my friends are out at brunch without me.

[00:47:27] Totally. And then you

[00:47:29] DBJ: probably want to look into as well, deepening and strengthening your individual relationships with people in that group. So that way it doesn’t feel like an all or nothing. Like, well, if I can’t go to the brunch, I guess I lost my group. And see if they’re open to it. Like, hey, do you want to go to this concert with me?

[00:47:42] next Saturday. It’ll be fun. I’m working on individual relationships with people, even though I’m not in the group chat anymore, and see who can come with you. But one harsh reality is things do fracture when there’s tension between two people in a group. It disrupts the ecosystem and the things that happen in response to that sometimes don’t [00:48:00] feel good.

[00:48:00] And you’ll see, wow, they’re prioritizing the group dynamic instead of showing up for me as the individual. My tangible response to that person would be to, you know, Decrease the frequency of the engagement and just go to the big things where it matters to this person who’s celebrating her new baby that she wants all her friends in the same room.

[00:48:15] So I’m going to show up and let her have that experience, but I’m not going to elect to go to every Saturday brunch. It’s not the same, and it’s an uncomfortable experience every time. So why would I continue to elect to go? I could also, to ease any anxiety, tell my mutual friends like, Hey, you guys know what’s going on with me and Sarah.

[00:48:31] I just want you to know I would never ask you to choose, but also I don’t feel comfortable. Comfortable being in spaces with her anymore. And I’ll never talk badly about her to you. Like setting norms of how this is going to go. I would really hope, you know, you guys aren’t talking about it when you’re together.

[00:48:44] And I can commit to like not talking poorly about her when we’re together. Just moving forward. Because I know this might be awkward for everyone. We can set the terms of this new phase.

[00:48:55] LM: Is it ever worth tamping down your own feelings about another individual [00:49:00] to preserve the dynamic of the group? Being like, she makes me really uncomfortable, she maybe checks any of those boxes that you said before, but this group is really valuable to me and I’m just going to ignore it and soldier on.

[00:49:12] Have you ever seen success with people doing that?

[00:49:14] DBJ: Everybody’s different. It’s okay if not. It’s helpful if not. Everybody’s different, but I would say like, you would have to figure out the degree to which those compromises and suppressions still work for you. So if you’re saying, Hey, when I see her, I can promise to say hello and be cordial.

[00:49:29] And you find that your anxiety is not going up and you’re not dreading the event for the week leading up to the event, like almost take stock, even inventory in your body. Like every time I show up to these things, I feel anxious. I feel resentful. I can’t even look at her. It feels like extra mental labor to constantly be aware where she is in the room so that I can look in the other direction for two hours.

[00:49:47] Like, you take stock of how much energy is involved doing that. And you would have to decide if like, hey, I can manage, it’s worth it seeing my friends, or if it feels like something that is completely

[00:49:56] LM: unmanageable. Do I need to invite [00:50:00] people to my wedding simply because they’re in my friend group if they’re not actually my close friend?

[00:50:04] Oh, okay. That gets into like wedding etiquette,

[00:50:07] DBJ: which is so hard. I’ll just say be prepared that if there’s somebody who you know expects that they’d be invited and you know that it would be a big thing for them to not be invited, you can front load that conversation because I think it’s more hurtful for people when they find out they weren’t invited and there was no conversation.

[00:50:26] You don’t owe that to everyone. Bye everyone. But if it’s a good friend who you know might feel slighted, confused, disrespected, to front load the conversation, I’ve noticed is helpful in buffering the disappointments of not being selected.

[00:50:41] LM: Okay, let’s do two more. How do I navigate the double dates with my husband’s good friends when I don’t like their wives?

[00:50:47] Is it bad that I think my husband’s best friends are wonderful, but I can’t connect with their life partners?

[00:50:52] DBJ: Oh my god, that’s so good. That’s a good one, Liz. So if you are doing double dates, not a [00:51:00] fan of the wife, but you love that your husband’s getting guy time and you find that you’re doing it more so for his sake, every now and then just take one for the team.

[00:51:09] And it goes back to what we said earlier about like not everybody has to be my close friend. So especially as long as it’s not something where she’s being disrespectful or something like that when you’re together, can you take one for the team so that your husband can enjoy. And then also encourage him to develop that friendship one on one so that they can engage without you feeling like you have to be present for them to have a relationship, which women often do because they say that men are like in a friendship crisis right now.

[00:51:34] And a lot of women say, Oh, my gosh, my husband doesn’t have friends. So I think we feel more inclined. to be involved, to help him get things along, but he’s also grown. So, so every now and then you go to take one for the team, but then you encourage, Hey, did you guys want to golf next week? You like golf? He likes golf.

[00:51:49] Encourage them to have their own thing. So you don’t have to be present for, you know, mis attitude at the table.

[00:51:55] LM: I also love encouraging people. partners to set standing dates so you’re not [00:52:00] always bugging them like, Hey, you like golfing. Why don’t you golf every Saturday? That’s a really long activity, but why don’t you go climbing every Thursday or something like that?

[00:52:07] So then they have a standing social activity every week. That’s a great

[00:52:10] DBJ: idea.

[00:52:10] LM: Yeah. So you’re not always bugging. Do you have any hot tips for making couples friends if we want really good couples friends?

[00:52:17] DBJ: Well, first, I really like when people set that goal because I think a lot of people in relationships feel like they’ll get more friend time if they can like all just be together, right?

[00:52:25] It feels very ideal. The first is accept that you might for a while be in a position where your husband likes him more than you like her or vice versa. That’s going to happen because friendship is a very elective relationship. So just because they’re electing to be involved in this doesn’t mean I have to with a partner.

[00:52:44] So give yourself some breathing room to accept. We might not be equal besties. It’s not a tv. There’s a lot of

[00:52:49] LM: dynamics at play. There’s so many dynamics for a person.

[00:52:52] DBJ: Friendship. Yeah. Oh yeah. And then also there’s the dynamics of like sometimes how we engage as a group versus one-on-one. So how we are as women.

[00:52:59] But then when [00:53:00] the guys come in, like it shifts a little bit ’cause they’re loud and they jump in. So that’s always gonna be kind of tricky. But the main tip, I would say it to be okay with. Having the courage to initiate that. Hey, do you want to all get together, but also give space for balancing individual time as well?

[00:53:13] So it sounds like a basic tip, but I noticed that we lean into one or the other, like we always want to congregate as a group, but I always say that that feels intimidating sometimes to nurture this capital G group, but it always helps when we have like individual relationships too. That way every Friday doesn’t become, can we all get together?

[00:53:30] If we’re fostering our individual relationship, when we come together, it feels more rhythmic. So I think. Being intentional about cultivating that balance could be helpful.

[00:53:37] LM: Are there better or worse couples friend dates? Should we be going out to eat? Should we be playing mini golf? Should we be playing pickleball?

[00:53:46] Like is there something that will facilitate that friendship in a really helpful way?

[00:53:50] DBJ: Okay, personally, especially if we’re talking about like To hetero couples, personally, I really like active dates because it gives you breathing room and it gives us [00:54:00] flexibility. So especially for men, and I hate to generalize, but especially for men, some researchers refer to it as the third object and it means that men tend to have to have a third thing going on.

[00:54:09] the basketball game. And so sitting down at the table and we’re all talking for two hours can be a lot sometimes. So I feel like having the pick a ball thing where, you know, maybe me and the wife are chatting a little bit and they’re on the side. And then we also have this activity to kind of buffer any awkward silences or to give us fodder for the conversation, the activity unfolding in front of us.

[00:54:29] So I personally like active things for couples because it just gives us a good balance and a good rhythm.

[00:54:34] LM: And if you’re in a same sex relationship, trying to. Make couples, friends in a same sex relationship, you’re just better than the rest of us and you can do whatever you want. Pretty much. Life hack.

[00:54:43] Yes. Okay, let’s do this. This is our last one. This feels a little silly, but I never know what to talk about when I’m out with my friends. I want to have those really laughter filled nights and have really good times, but I don’t know how to get there. Help.

[00:54:59] DBJ: Oh my gosh, I don’t [00:55:00] think that’s silly at all.

[00:55:00] That’s totally valid. Okay, so a couple things. The first I would say is it feels very random, but I promise it helps with conversation, is look at what you’re consuming outside of the friendship. So, if you’re like listening to podcasts, reading books, seeing interesting things, I’ve noticed that person tends to have more material for conversation.

[00:55:21] When you’re In activities and things like that, so I always want to be delicate with that suggestion. Because I don’t want people to think, I wish I had more to offer. It doesn’t mean that you have to be so bright and brilliant and funny of your own, like, volition. But if you have other things going on, then you naturally have some stuff to talk about.

[00:55:37] So I would encourage you to, like, read a little more. Watch some interesting shows. Engage with people around your neighborhood. Because then that person has stories to tell. Interesting facts. You have things to connect with when others offer things on the table. You can say, oh my god I just read something on that and you can keep it moving So I always suggest start with what you’re consuming individually and you’ll notice you have lots of interesting things to share [00:56:00] You can also use People’s social media accounts as your prompts.

[00:56:04] So for example, if the people I’m hanging out with like recently posted about a trip, I can comment on that. It’s not weird. So I can say like, didn’t you just post about a trip? Tell us everything. Right. And I can kind of draw you in and then piggyback on the things you shared. If I feel like really I’ve got nothing to offer.

[00:56:18] I’ve noticed that works too so you don’t feel like you’re just coming up with things from scratch. What are they already identifying as something interesting and worth sharing? Cause we’re putting it on social, it’s worth sharing to them. So I’m going to play off of that. You just posted about X. Tell me more.

[00:56:31] Tell me the details that you didn’t put on social. I want to know the realty, you know, like it’s playful, but it’s also like inviting them in. And then the third thing I would say is take the pressure off of having every conversation be a really dynamic conversation, release the tight grip on the vision of the person.

[00:56:47] Of the three hour laugh fests happening every time because sometimes serendipitously those nights happen and that’s really great and sometimes it’s more of like a stilted conversation and that’s just the art of [00:57:00] conversation. I’d like to think I’m a great conversationalist and I’ve had conversations where it didn’t really flow, but I think what matters most is.

[00:57:08] How are you resilient afterwards? If you have a night that kind of bombed and conversation didn’t flow, are you automatically going toward internalizing that? Oh gosh, I knew I wasn’t interesting. I knew they didn’t like me. Or is it just like, okay, that night was rough. But on Friday, I’ll mention this. Or I can’t wait to see them again on Friday.

[00:57:23] So that resilience and that bounce back without dreaming up these perfect. visions of conversation I think might be helpful.

[00:57:29] LM: I’d also add to your point about couple states. I think doing activities together is so helpful too. Like when I lived in New York, my friends and I would get together and we’d basically go to dinner or go to a bar.

[00:57:40] And since I’ve stopped drinking as much, we do really interesting, fun activities together and we’ll play games or we’ll go to a ropes course or we’ll go for a hike. Actually having these mini adventures together gives us something to talk about in the activity and then the laughter and the fun conversations [00:58:00] and all of that come up more naturally than when you’re just like every single time.

[00:58:03] If your interactions feel boring, I would ask if every single time you’re doing kind of a boring

[00:58:08] DBJ: thing. That’s so good. Like that default, let’s go to dinner, let’s get drinks. So to your point, yeah, like we mentioned earlier, having something to give us conversation fodder, where there’s an element of spontaneity because we don’t know what’s going to happen in the next 10 minutes at this thing.

[00:58:21] I totally agree with I’m reading this book, how to have more fun. And the author Catherine Price. Explains how to have true fun because sometimes we do things that we think are supposed to be but they’re really not and so she Provides this chart. It’s like those Venn diagrams like the three circles and that overlap in the center represents true fun She says those three things are connection because oftentimes when you’re having fun It’s something you’re doing outside of yourself.

[00:58:46] You’re engaged with something or someone outside of yourself. The second is playfulness So there’s a certain like Lightheartedness to it and finally flow, which means we’re very present and there are no distractions. So ask yourself when you are [00:59:00] getting with these friends, do you have the elements of true fun?

[00:59:03] And I’m going to throw this in there for a little spice, the people you’re hanging out with, do you feel like you’re performing? Do they feel like people you can relax in front of? What if we feel like we are performing? You have to look at how much of that is external and how much is internal. So how much of you internally feels like you need to be an impressive person and how much of that is really from other people.

[00:59:26] Meaning you have showed your authentic self and they keep, you know, swatting it away or minimizing or judging. So they have made you feel that way versus you internally have always had this imposter thing where you feel like you need to impress.

[00:59:39] LM: So if it’s the latter, maybe we’re exploring new friendships, but if it’s the former, maybe we’re taking baby steps to show our real selves and seeing how people respond.

[00:59:47] DBJ: Yeah, and I’m no psychologist, but I’m sure that goes back to a lot of things from childhood, like if you were told that your real self was silly or nerdy or things like that, maybe you’ve built up this fake self of, okay, well, I seem to get, Approval when I do these [01:00:00] things, but you know, how can you really maintain that?

[01:00:02] I would explore it just by baby steps. Can I really share my true opinion on this one thing? Can I really share with people this interest that I normally am embarrassed about? So how can you in these small micro vulnerable ways share who you really are and give people a chance to affirm it so that you can continue to do that?

[01:00:19] LM: And we have an entire episode with Catherine Price, so I’ll link that in the show notes if anybody wants to listen. Danielle, tell us about your amazing new book. Yeah, so the book is called Fighting for

[01:00:28] DBJ: Our Friendships, and I’m just so excited to be a part of the ongoing conversation around friendship.

[01:00:34] People are having a lot more public discourse. Something I’m trying to offer that’s a little bit different or a little more nuanced is gender at the intersection of friendship, because I’m very curious about the research around women’s cooperation, communication, and conflict. And it’s simply different.

[01:00:48] Thank you. And so for people who are interested in learning the mechanics of women’s friendship, and then also some tangible strategies on how to navigate the day to day business of being friends, I think this book would be perfect for them.

[01:00:58] LM: If you listen to this pod, you will [01:01:00] love everything Danielle puts out on your social media too, which I have to shout out because it’s incredible.

[01:01:04] But you are all science plus tangible action tips, which is what we love here too.

[01:01:09] DBJ: Yeah. And I’m so grateful for you facilitating these moments to have these conversations. It’s so important. So thank you for that. Thank you

[01:01:15] LM: for all of the wisdom that you shared. It was wonderful. That’s all for this episode of the Liz Moody podcast.

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[01:02:18] It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.