EPISODE 187

[00:00:00] LM: Robyn, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you here. I’m such a fan of everything that you’ve created for yourself on the internet. You have such a strong brand, but then you also have this authenticity and vulnerability. And I just love what you’re putting out there.

[00:00:17] RB: Thank you so much. I feel like for a long time I thought I had to be one or the other to really gain a following. And then when I realized that gaining a following wasn’t the entire point of my career or who I am as a human, I was like, “You know what? If I just show myself like I can do both,” and it actually ended up getting me exactly where I needed to be. Because I have the side of me that’s very pop culture, business-oriented. But then I’ve gone through so much in my life that I know others can relate to. So slowly opening up and showing that side of me to my audience, um, is very important for me and is the most personal obviously to me that I love doing. It’s been amazing to have the platform to do so.

[00:01:03] LM: You say that growing a following isn’t the sole purpose of your brand and your life. What do you think of as the purpose of your brand and your life?

[00:01:27] RB: When I think about what the purpose of my life is, I like to think about what makes me genuinely happy. And throughout therapy I’ve made a list of things from very small to big of things that actually make me happy, um, and to focus on that. And I did learn that in therapy. But it’s also in one of Oprah’s books, who I love. Um, because she’s like I accomplish all of this and I’m still like, “Okay, what’s next?” So I think the purpose of my life is to live a life of fulfillment where I can say I’m genuinely happy. And what I like doing the most is definitely, um, my philanthropic work with Grief Camp and being kind of a role model for girls or guys who maybe don’t have a traditional background or a traditional story or a traditional family and show that they can find success as well.

[00:02:21] LM: You said you have little things and big things that make you happy. Can you share some of those?

[00:02:29] RB: I am very much a music person and that’s what inspires a lot of my ad campaigns weirdly enough. So when a really good song plays during a movie or a TV show, that is something that makes me so happy that I hyper fixate on.

Um, driving to the beach with my guy best friends in New Hampshire knowing we have the whole day ahead of us. I love the beginning of days where you’re like I’m already having so much fun and I have the whole day to go. When there’s so much to look forward to and you’re already having so much fun.

Um, I love being by the water. Like I’m such a water baby. Um, and definitely having a good meal with my best girlfriends from childhood where we feel like we’re all at the same point in life again. Because, in the real world, we’re all in such different places in our life. But when we all get together it’s like we’re all teenagers again. Um, and that’s very comforting to me. Those are some of the things that make me really, really happy.

[00:03:31] LM: What do you do on a day where you wake up and you’re just kind of in a funk? Will you schedule in one of those things?

[00:03:36] RB: I would like to say that I would do that. Um, but as anybody who’s listening to this knows, when you’re in a funk, it’s really hard to do something good for yourself. Um, but I’ve been trying to do so. Also, my therapist. And I have been talking about kind of proactively doing those things. I travel so much for work. I travel once every week or two weeks. Um, so while I’m home, I tend to just like decompress and stay in my room because I’m not home that much. But that leads to me kind of like hibernating and bad thoughts even though it’s what I need.

So it’s proactively being like, “Okay, Robyn, you’re going to be home for a week. Make at least one plan with friends, with yourself to get out of the house and do something that will make you happy.”

In the moment, normally when I’m sad, I’m not like, “I’m going to do something that makes me happy.” I wish I could. Uh, but it’s harder than it sounds. But I’ve been trying to proactively schedule that into my daily life so I always have it.

[00:04:36] LM: I love that. Okay. So we’re going to get into so many different questions from listeners. We got so many good ones. But let’s start off in the social media realm because you’re an expert in marketing. You’re an expert in branding. We’ve got a lot of amazing questions in that capacity. So let’s start with I want to start sharing my life on social media but I feel like I have nothing important enough to say. Do you think I should still try to find my voice and build a personal brand? Or does that mean that this just isn’t my thing?

[00:05:05] RB: Um, that question within itself is kind of contradicting, because listen to what you’re saying. You’re saying you want to be on social media but you feel like you don’t have anything important enough to say. Why don’t you say that? Why don’t you be honest on social media and be like, “Hey, I love social media so much. I’m trying to find my thing. Come along with me to try different things.” That within itself is something to say and is something that a lot of people can relate to. And how about when you’re trying to find your niche or your voice? You bring along, um, the people who are following you on that journey.

[00:05:38] LM: In your mind, what separates the people who people want to follow along on their journey and people don’t want to necessarily tune in and come along?

[00:05:49] RB: I’ve tried to put this down to a science or a formula, obviously, because this is my job. But if I’m being completely honest, sometimes I do think it’s random. I think there is so much skill and some people have such likability. There are some influencers that they could say I’m going to go skydiving and eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I’m afraid of heights. I would want to do it just because they’re doing it. I can’t put my finger down and be like, “Oh, this is why.”

In broad terms people will be like, “They have to be authentic. They have to be honest with their audience.” But these are things we all hear. They’re buzzwords. I think that the person who is following along with this journey needs to see a little bit of themselves in you. It all has to do with, uh, the algorithm. What the audience interest is? The type of content you’re putting out there. I really genuinely, even though this is my job, I probably shouldn’t be saying this, don’t think there’s like a science or formula behind it

But clearly, some people just have it. And sometimes it is something so random and we’re all like, “Why are we all obsessed with Emily Mariko silently cutting vegetables in her kitchen?” Or why are we all obsessed with Alis Earle who has great advice in getting ready in college when I’m 30 in Boston? I don’t really think there’s like a science to it. I think some people just have it. Um, and that goes a long way.

But if I was trying to start social media, I would say the worst thing you can do is try to find that formula and try to fit in a box of what’s worked before. Because that’s not who you are.

[00:07:34] LM: It begs the question though. I think a lot of us struggle with like who am I? And then when you have to distill that into a brand to put out there, you’re like, “Oh, my God, it almost sends you into an existential crisis.”

[00:07:45] RB: Every day. Literally every day. Um, but then, uh, I also like to ask a question. But like am I, my brand? Am I who I am my brand? Or is my brand my job? Or is it an extension of me? There’s so many paths you can go down when asking those questions. And I definitely struggle with it every single day. Um, because sometimes I’ll be sitting here and I’ll be like, This is my passion. Like I get to do my passion for a living. I never thought I would be able to do that. And I know the privilege that comes with that. It’s so incredibly massive.

But then sometimes I’ll be really upset that a video I made didn’t do well and isn’t getting likes. And I’m letting it affect me so badly. And I’ll look at my life and who I am and my friends and I’m like, “Am I really basing myself on likes? Like am I really going to have a bad day over validation and likes on the Internet?” It’s such a tough line to draw and complex to be in.

[00:08:52] LM: I completely agree. I struggle with that a lot. And I’ve even seen friends who aren’t creators struggle with how much social media has made us dependent on outside validation versus all of the other ways that we were sort of self-validating before. It’s a bummer of the platforms. And I’m still not quite sure the best way to navigate that.

[00:09:13] RB: Yeah, me neither. But at least for me personally, social media has given me so much more than it’s hindered me. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that it has hindered me. But this next generation coming up, I think it’s special. I see signs of hope in the younger generations on social media. And even the fact that I have a career because of social media in a creative way is like so special and cool and something to look forward to. Even people whose careers aren’t on social media, it has definitely grown them through so much.

[00:09:53] LM: Has there been anything that’s been helpful on your journey of figuring out who you are?

[00:10:00] RB: Oh, my gosh. Like so much. But also, like not enough. A lot of inner child work. I started to get into, um, therapy really deeply around March, um, because I was struggling. And the majority of what we’re doing is inner child work.

Especially with the Barbie movie that just came out, it’s a lot about that. Um, I think like when you’re trying to figure out who you are, it’s really good to look inward of like who you were before the world, social media, boyfriends, friends. Who were you at your core?

And obviously, growth is incredible and amazing. But it’s also really good to look back at like those things that made you you before they were affected by others and everything.

[00:10:57] LM: For you, what is that?

[00:11:01] RB: When I was younger, I, um, grew up in a house with a lot going on. And I wasn’t always allowed to express my emotions or, um, be heard. Um, and now being able to express my emotions and be heard by an audience and know my worth and my value, and not that that’s all in validation, but to be able to freely express that.

And even like fan girl over TV shows. Like, I am such a fan girl over these teen TV shows. And it might not seem that much but it brings me so much joy and I feel like a kid again. And it’s little things like that that I’ve been able to kind of turn inwards. And that’s why I love, uh, volunteering at the grief camp that I volunteer with because I’m around, um, young girls and teens. And I see a lot of myself in them and kind of reconnecting with myself through them is just like so helpful.

[00:12:03] LM: I was talking to some of my friends after we watched the Barbie movie, which I think is like a phenomenal work of genius. We were talking about how the movie makes it really clear how the hobbies that little boys have are endorsed as adult male hobbies. But the hobbies that little girls have aren’t endorsed. Like we’re so diminishing of what women love in this society. And I thought that that movie illustrated that really nicely.

[00:12:32] RB: That’s my whole career. I mean, I grew up being a horrible student. Um, not because I wasn’t educated or enough. But because I had a lot going on at home. I couldn’t really focus in school. And the things I was interested in were pop culture, e-news, celebrities. Like, Us Weekly. Like I was just engulfed in pop culture from a very young age because it was kind of my escape.

Um, and I was told from guidance counselors to adults in my life that that’s a vapid hobby to have. You’re a little girl from Nashua, New Hampshire. You’re not going to do e-news. Like you can’t even get a C in English. Um, and the first job I booked was e-news.

So I completely, completely agree with that. Um, and the fact that a lot of what we’re interested in, even being a fan girl of something is so looked down upon or looked as vapid. And to be a fan of something in the art of that and the science behind that can be used in business, marketing. So many things that, um, I want to say women, but people are interested in, those types of things. It’s looked at as valid and it’s genuinely given me a career and has changed my life. So I’m really glad that the movie spoke on that because I couldn’t agree more.

[00:13:52] LM: I’ve always been a fan of Taylor Swift. But I became a Swifty during the pandemic where I’m very into it. I’m watching all the theories. I’m going to the concerts. All of that kind of stuff. And it’s such a beautiful sense of community, too. I feel like we live in a world that can feel so lonely. And being part of these fandoms and connecting over these things I think is so much more important than we give it credit for because it automatically makes you part of this community.

[00:14:23] RB: Yeah. I’ve been a Swifty for life. I went to Speak Now, um, as my first big stadium tour. Um, and I’ve also been like a groupie in a sense. Like I love boy bands growing up. And I would follow them on tour. Loved Justin Bieber. Followed him on tour. And none of my friends were into that. Um, and they were like, “Girl, you’re spending so much money on these concerts and traveling hours. Like, what are you doing?”

And the sense of community I got from fandom, genuinely changed my life. And I’m being so serious. So, I couldn’t agree with that more. It’s like the best experience. And then at Era’s Tour, I was sobbing the whole time and people made fun of this.

[00:15:06] LM: I cried so hard. I cried so hard.

[00:15:07] RB: I was just looking around and I was like these are the lyrics of my childhood, my adolescence and my adult years. And watching everybody experience it together is so incredibly special. And there’s not enough of this in the world at all.

[00:15:20] LM: Yeah, there’s not. There’s no feeling like singing with 70,000 other people. There’s just not another feeling like that.

[00:15:27] RB: It’s insane.

[00:15:30] LM: Okay. Let’s do how do you allow yourself to be creative when people expect you not to be? I’m really into arts, crafts, dancing, cooking. But people make comments about wasting my time and money since I work as an engineer and everyone is toxic and judgy.

[00:16:14] RB: If you think about it, this is your life. You wake up every morning as you. You go to bed every night as you. In a sense, you have so many people that love and care about you. But at the end of the day in the world, you kind of just have yourself.

And I would just say to listen to what you want to do. I lost my mom when she was 50. And I always think to myself tomorrow is not promised. And at the end of the day, like when I watched somebody become so sick and lose their life, and I watch my mom in that hospital bed, I saw her just obviously be sick. But I was like if I was in that position, would I be thinking about what other people thought about me? Would I be thinking about judgment? No.

At the end of your life, you’re going to think about the things that you love and that made you happy. And other people’s judgment a lot of the times is just projecting because they want to be doing the same things but they’re scared. So I wouldn’t take other people’s judgment to heart too much. I’m so sensitive.

But try to look at it like you only have yourself in this life to really do the things you want to do and dream the things you want to dream and to go after those things. And everybody, deep down, wishes they could be doing the same.

[00:18:02] LM: What’s the saying like the only people you have to please are your five-year-old self and your 85-year-old self or something like that?

[00:18:08] RB: Exactly. And that’s not to say to shut the world out. But it’s like, at the end of the day, really, like you do genuinely are only yourself. Like you have to focus on those things.

[00:18:19] LM: I completely agree. I also think that setting boundaries with people and saying I’m not interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Just so that they know that the line is drawn there and that you aren’t interested in their opinion. So you don’t have to keep saying it. And then if they keep saying it, a good boundary as you remove yourself from the situation.

[00:18:39] RB: Definitely.

[00:18:40] LM: Also, it’s come up in so many podcasts recently that hobbies are what make us happy. Hobbies are one of the key parts that make life worth living. And particularly, creative hobbies.

I have a older friend. She’s in her 60s. And she says all of the time that she’s not the creative person. That like her siblings, her friends are their creative people. And I’m like maybe you are and you have been your entire life. And you just haven’t gotten the permission to let that side of you out. And it makes me so, so sad that she views herself that way. And she says it enough too that it’s very clear that she wants that, you know?

[00:19:20] RB: Totally.

[00:19:23] LM: I’m a big fan of anything that you can do to let those sides of you out is very much worth it. Okay, let’s do, “I’m currently working a full-time corporate job but not feeling fulfilled by it. I want to make time for other creative endeavors outside of work to feel more fulfilled. But all I want to do at the end of the day is watch TV because I’m so exhausted.” Do you have any advice?

[00:19:49] RB: That was and still is legitimately me. I feel this on such a personal, personal level. Because I don’t really have a lot of gray area. So I’m either going, going, going. And then when I’m done, I am in bed, watching TV, happy with my dog. And I’m so exhausted.

And I speak about this all the time with my friends who are still in corporate America, which is a beautiful thing. Um, this is not like hating on corporate America at all. But I think about parents and I’m like, “How do people get up, go to work from nine to five?” By the way, school gets out at three. How are moms supposed to get their kids if they’re at work till five? Then do extracurricular activities and come home, cook dinner. Then what? There’s like two, an hour left in the day? How are you supposed to have a life outside of that life?

Um, but I will say, if there’s any type of advice, obviously, there are weekends. It’s like during the week really isn’t the best place for you. Or if you’re at a job and you have good work friends or your work has like a kickball league or goes up to lunch, make it so that you’re able to do these creative things that you love maybe even during the work day. Obviously, with permission. Or, um, find time on the weekends. Or maybe pick like one day a week. Like, I’m so exhausted. But I’m going to put myself out there because I know I’m going to be glad that I did it at the end of the day.

Um, but you are not alone in that. But, uh, folks on weekends, plan it out ahead of time until you almost like have to go. Maybe just one day a week. Or look to your works communities and people at work that have similar Hobbies as you and maybe try to figure out if there’s anything you can do while you’re working.

[00:21:46] LM: I would also ask if you have more energy before work or after work. Because I think some people are like, “I’m not a morning person. I’m not going to wake up at six and like have my day.” What’s it called? You’re five to nine? Before, you know, I’m never going to do that.

But for some people that works really well, I’m an evening person and I get that energy at like seven or eight at night. And so, for me, having that be the time that I’m devoting to the things that I care about the most makes a lot of sense. So I would say, “Where is your energy?

And then, also, I do think that people can recoup a lot of the energy they’re giving to work by setting better boundaries with work.

[00:22:20] RB: So hard. Yeah.

[00:22:19] LM: – it’s so hard to do. But it can sometimes even be like one conversation with your boss that’s like I need to not be answering emails after 7pm

[00:22:30] RB: Yes.

[00:22:31] LM: I’m so sorry. I can do it in the morning, whatever. But being clear about what those boundaries are. And then, also, what you’re setting for yourself as expectations.

I remember when I was in a corporate job, I would be working on a presentation until like eight at night and I was like, “Oh, this has to be done.” But it didn’t really. It was just like it had to be done in my head, you know?

[00:22:50] RB: Same. Same.

[00:22:51] LM: – Looking out for those opportunities where you’re like, “Am I putting all of my energy to work first and paying myself energetically second? Or is there a way to kind of switch some of that and pay myself energetically first?

[00:23:05] RB: Yeah. I would make myself sick. Like, I would be up till like nine o’clock at night working at something. And I remember my last days at those jobs, I would leave, I’d be like, “Technically, that really didn’t mean anything.” Like it’s just so weird how much time and energy you put into your job, obviously, because it’s your job. But then at the end of the day, you’re like, “This could be done in the morning and I’m just pushing myself.”

[00:23:27] LM: Yes.

[00:23:27] RB: It’s just so crazy. But you’re in your head you feel like, “No. I have to get it done.”

[00:23:30] LM: Even the culture of like inbox zero. I’m like, yeah, sure. It feels good. But does it feel good because we’ve pedestalized productivity so much? Like why does your inbox need to be a zero?

[00:23:39] RB: It’s crazy.

[00:23:41] LM: So how much pressure you put in on yourself and how much could you free up some of that energy to give back to yourself? Because, again, I just feel like so many parts of advice, and life and this conversation are like you have one life. Like, what do you want it to look like at the end of the day?

[00:23:59] RB: Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:59] LM: We’re going to get into some questions about grief. And you’ve mentioned your mother a few times. Can you give us a little bit of background on what happened with that situation?

[00:24:08] RB: My mom got sick when I was 15. Just turned 16. Actually, the day I got my license, my mom had a brand aneurysm. Um, and thank God that she had it in Boston while my little sister was training at Skating Club of Boston because she was taken to Mass General, which is an incredible hospital. And they were able to save her from her brain aneurysm. But it took around six months to a year of recovery and rehab. But she was able to survive that, which is such a blessing.

After the brain aneurysm, my mom was definitely a different person in a sense. But we were still very lucky to have her. And this is around when I was finishing out high school. And a year after her brain aneurysm, she was diagnosed with a rare form of anal cancer. Not colon actual. Cancer of the anus. Um, and she was treated for six months.

And after six months they said, “Okay, she’s good. She’s cancer free,” which was great. And then, around six months after that, she woke up one morning paralyzed from the neck down, um, and was taken to the hospital and died seven days later because the cancer was actually growing the whole time. And she wasn’t fully cured with it yet. Um, and she passed away when I was 20.

So, from the time I was 16 to 20 was very much a roller coaster on top of other personal family issues that we were going through at the time. And from 16 to 20, I feel like are very pivotal years of growing up and needing a mom and figuring out who you are. And I was kind of in fight or flight for all four years.

Um, so, Thursday will actually be nine years since that happened. Um, and I’ve come so far. But at the same time, like grief, definitely, isn’t linear. And in a weird way, I feel like it almost gets worse and better at the same time.

[00:26:15] LM: Hmm. I knew the cancer part. I didn’t know the aneurysm part. It’s interesting. Actually, my mom, uh, got in an accident when I was two and was in the hospital for a long time and it had these residual effects on my life. And it’s interesting that part of your story.

[00:26:35] RB: Yeah. Because grief also doesn’t need to be the person passing away. I grieved my mom twice. I grieved my mom once she became sick and then when she passed away, which are two very different processes. But they’re still just as important. Um, and some things that you need to like turn in words on and like think about when you’re healing.

[00:26:54] LM: Yeah, that’s been a huge thing for me, my parents got divorced as a result of the accident and all these different things. And there is this grief for the relationship with both of them that I would have had.

[00:27:03] RB: Totally.

[00:27:04] LM: The life that I would have had. And then, also, like I was two to five when all this stuff was happening. So it’s like another formative developmental period but a very different one than high school. I’m grieving the stuff that I don’t even have conscious memory of which is really interesting. Okay. Let’s do this one first. I lost my mom when I was seven and I never fully grieved her death. I was so young. Family just kept moving on. Other family issues. How do you allow yourself to grieve after so long and you’re so afraid to let that wall down possibly for the first time in your life?

[00:27:39] RB: Well, I cannot speak from experience because I was older when all this happened. But I do volunteer at a grief camp called Experience Camps. And some of the campers that I’ve worked with, um, since they are younger, their parents or siblings or caretakers passed away kind of before they really got to know that parent. Or they don’t really remember what it was like when they were around, which is also hard and part of the grieving process. First and foremost, you’re not alone. Um, and however you choose to grieve this is going to be your own journey.

But I would say when it comes to being afraid of letting your walls down because it’s been so long. One, again, you’re not alone. And two, the fact that you’re even asking yourself these questions and thinking these kinds of thoughts just shows that you’re open to the idea, which is massive and something you should be so proud of yourself for doing. Because a lot of people never get to that place where they’re ready.

So take everything with a grain of salt. If you’re able and capable of receiving and affording therapy, maybe speaking to a grief therapist. Getting involved with an organization like Grief Camp, um, where you can be around others who have experienced grief as well. And in some way, that makes it at least less scary when I was going through it.

But, um, definitely try to start knocking down those walls a little bit. And if it gets too much, you know yourself, be like, “Okay. Wait a minute. Like, I think I still need a little bit of time.” And that’s okay. But also try to push yourself to get there. Because sometimes when the walls start coming down, you’re like, “Whoa. This is too scary. This is too much.” That’s actually when you need it the most.

Know your body. Like, know your emotions. Work through it slowly. But just be proud of yourself that you’ve even got into the place where you are where you’re like, “Hey, this was never talked about. And that’s kind of weird. And I kind of want to get into this a little bit.” That’s huge. And that’s something you should be really proud of yourself with.

[00:29:49] LM: I completely agree. And I’ll say from my personal experience, this past year, I’ve been working on in therapy and kind of exploring the grief around and how my mother’s situation impacted me. And it’s one of the more difficult things that I’ve ever done. But I also have gotten to know myself so much more in the process.

I feel like there was a part of me that wasn’t available to me. She’s like, “Oh, the wall is up.” And it’s like the wall is kind of up inside yourself. Like you are denying yourself access to a part of yourself. And I think there’s something really beautiful about saying I want to be my whole self. I’m not going to keep this part of me compartmentalized.

[00:30:33] RB: And acknowledging the wall is huge. A lot of the trauma from my childhood has nothing to do with my mom’s passing or my mom getting sick, which I found out through therapy. And I didn’t even know that some of these walls existed until I started to speak about things and talk to my therapist and kind of approach that.

But the fact that you’re recognizing, “Hey, I’m putting this wall up.” Again, is massive and very important and will allow you to, um, look at things differently when you start to take it down.

[00:31:06] LM: Is there an example of what the walls were about or how you had that realization in case anybody else is in a similar place?

[00:31:15] RB: I don’t know if I’ve ever really spoken about this on social media. And I’m not going to get too deep into it because it’s not necessarily my story to tell. But I grew up around addiction.

Um, and from a, like, 10, 11 age, throughout my whole adolescent life. Being very close to somebody who was struggling with addiction. And that’s another scenario where you’re constantly in fight or flight. Every thing is waiting on baited breath and constantly waiting for the other shoe to fall always.

Um, and watching somebody go from good to bad, good to bad, and just wanting the best for them. And then, also realizing like this isn’t who they are. But like they’re still treating me this way. There’s so much that goes along with addiction. But, um, I was always in fight or flight and waiting for the other shoe to fall.

And now in my life, when things are going good, I’m still waiting for that shoe to fall. And I still have codependent relationships and abandonment issues where I’m like, “If I get in a fight with a friend, a co-worker, a boyfriend,” I’m just wanting to make it better so badly right away because I’m so scared something bad is going to happen.

Um, and that’s not something that I related back to that issue in my childhood until I started to really dig deep and think about the parts of my childhood that I kind of blacked out or didn’t really acknowledge until now.

[00:32:54] LM: Is it part of the process? If you’re like, “Oh, I’m in a fight with my friend. I need to make things better immediately.” Do you hold yourself back now to practice allowing for that? Or how does that work?

[00:33:06] RB: Yes. I mean, trying. It’s so crazy because I’m such an independent person and I feel like I’ve gotten so far in life a lot by myself, um, because I’ve had to. And with my friends, I’m always giving this badass advice. And in my career, I’m like a go-getter. And then in my friendships and relationships, I become so meek and so codependent. And I was like, “This is not making sense. Like how am I becoming the opposite of who I know I am?”

Sust like recognizing that and now trying to hold myself accountable and do certain things that help with that. Um, I’ve started to do that. But it’s still very hard. Even when I get work critique from my team, I’m like, “Oh, my God. Like, this is horrible. It happened the other day. So even though I’m working on it so hard, I still find myself in those patterns and it’s just going to take more time to work through that.

[00:34:16] LM: And to the point of the codependency, I think that I have this, too. When a lot of your self-worth is coming from your relationships with other people, from what other people think about you. Whether they’re in your real life or on social media. When you don’t have that intrinsic sense of self-worth as powerfully, everything can feel so life or death.

[00:34:35] RB: 100%. Yes. You’re reading my book. Yep. That’s me.

[00:34:41] LM: I’s a struggle for me as well, for sure. It’s interesting, you said that it’s not your story to tell. And I’m curious from a branding expert, from a social media expert perspective, that’s something that I struggle with a lot. Is my mom’s accident, and the resulting divorce and like all these things. It impacted my life so hugely. It’s this incredibly large part of my childhood. But I also feel like it’s not my story to tell. And so many people who were involved in that are still alive and around. And I don’t want to hurt feelings. Do you have any advice for sharing our stories while being cognizant that they’re not only our own?

[00:35:22] RB: This is something I struggle with as well. I mean, I talk about my mom’s, um, death a lot. Because, unfortunately – mom jokes She’s not here to like speak on it. And I know it helps so many people and that’s my story speaking about how I lost my mom. But when it comes to the other things that happened in my childhood that, um, weren’t me doing certain things or other people’s stories. I tread very carefully with that for that reason.

And I think that you can still share. Like I still say, I went through so much of my childhood, which led to this, this and this. Like, I still tell my story but I don’t get into details. Specific details. But I think about the parts that have affected me directly, it’s okay to share. Um, but that’s something I’m still navigating as well, but I still don’t think that you should not be able to speak about those things because it’s your story, too.

[00:36:32] LM: Because it’s your life.

[00:36:34] RB: When it comes to getting into the details of certain aspects, especially with addiction, um, I tread very, very lightly. And I don’t even really think I’ve fully dove into that on my platform yet. But it is important to talk about that’s the struggle because I know so many people were raised around addiction or deal with it themselves where that story is important to tell.

[00:37:03] LM: And also, I feel like the thing that I struggle with is, as people get to know me, it’s such an important piece of who I am is this element of how I was raised.

[00:37:13] RB: Yes.

[00:37:15] LM: And so, I feel like I’m hiding something. But I’m not hiding it intentionally. And I feel like it colors my world view, and my actions, and the conversations that I’m interested in having and all of these things. And then, I can’t. I feel like I’m being deliberately obtuse. But I’m not.

[00:37:29] RB: Ah – yes. 100%.

[00:37:34] LM: It’s hard. Okay. I lost my sister a few months ago and I feel like I can’t move on with life without her. Can you share some tips for what has helped you continue living life when it feels impossible and like no one understands?

[00:37:46] RB: Yes. Definitely. Um, I can relate to this. First and foremost, I think community is so important. Um, I feel like I’m sounding like a record on repeat. But my other friends who have gone through loss or my fellow counselors at experience camps, like having a community of people who have gone through something similar is truly the reason I keep going every day. Because just not feeling alone in this I think is step one. Because it is such a lonely feeling.

I remember leaving the hospital the day my mom died and driving in the car and just like having an out of body experience. I probably shouldn’t have been driving. Looking at everybody else driving their car and listening to music. And I’m like, “I’m having the worst day of my life. This will go down in history as the worst day of my life. But that person next to me is like going to McDonald’s.”

It’s just like how can my world be ending but continuing at the same time? It’s the most bizarre feeling. And you’ll never understand it until you go through it. So I think finding community and realizing you’re not alone is very important.

And then, also, I’m not sure how your sister passed. But I think to myself, my mom was fighting to stay alive, to stay alive. Actively fighting to stay alive. Um, and would give anything to be here.

Um, so if I don’t honor that and want to be here and do the things she wanted to do and do the things I want to do. I kind of think of it as a way of honoring her by being able to still live life when she can’t. But that’s not to say you are not honoring your parent or sibling if they’ve passed away and you don’t want to live life anymore. Because that is a very serious feeling. That comes along with mental health and grief.

So I – tread lightly with saying that. And I hope people don’t take that the wrong way. Um, but, I would say find a community. Try to honor them. Um, and then if you are at the point where it’s really, really serious and bad, definitely try to seek, um, professional help.

And I know when you’re going into professional help, you’re going to be like, “This person has no idea what I’m going through. Nobody could ever understand this type of pain. They weren’t there. They don’t get it.” And I get that, too. And that is true. But just having somebody to have a conversation with when you’re going through those times is so crucial and will help you more than you’ll ever know.

[00:40:34] LM: Were there any little things that you did on a day-to-day basis that helped you feel a part of the world again? Like structure you gave to your day or anything like that?

[00:40:43] RB: Honestly, no. I’m sure other people can relate to this. My mom’s death didn’t hit me until like two and a half years later, two, three, almost four. Um, because I went right back to college after it happened.

Maybe I did have routines and stuff. But it was in the unhealthy way. I just went right back to being a college kid. I was at college. I was like, “My mom’s back home.” Like, I’m good. And then right after college, I went out to LA. And I was like, “Okay. I’m in LA. My mom’s not home. Like, I’m good.” I set up things to get myself through it, which actually did the opposite and like shoved down my grief.

Then when I moved back to New Hampshire for other family reasons is when I was like, “Oh, my God. I can’t do this life anymore. Like, the person who brought me into the world isn’t here anymore. What is happening?” Like, it all kind of hit me way later because I was setting up things to distract myself. And that’s not to say, when you’re going through these times, don’t go to a movie with a friend that make you laugh. But I would say try to find the things that make you happy and be around people you love. And get out of the house. That’s the hardest thing for me at least. Um, but don’t try to to bury it.

[00:42:04] LM: It’s like don’t try to bury it. But also, if you laugh at a movie or you’re hanging with your friends and you’re having a good time, like that’s okay. I think there can often be so much guilt in enjoying your life. And I think it’s so beautiful the way you put it, that that enjoyment of life is a way of honoring the person who’s passed.

[00:42:22] RB: And, also, being able to laugh at the situation you’re going through or have “dead mom” jokes, it makes everybody in the room uncomfortable. But that helped me. Like, that’s why I like having a community of people who’ve also gone through it. Because you only get it when you get it. Laughing. Maybe even being joking, which sounds so inappropriate. But it’s not. It’s the truth. It’s what everybody does who’s gone through these types of things. And then, also, realizing, “Hey, if somebody passed away who was sick,” and in a weird way you almost feel relief because you don’t have to go through having that person be so sick and losing them slowly. And you’re so devastated and heartbroken that you lost this person. But in some way, you feel a sense of relief because you can continue to live your life and you can get out of this hospital and your parent or sibling or whoever you’re grieving isn’t in pain anymore. That’s another feeling that people feel shamed about when going through grief. That is completely normal to feel as well. It is so not linear. And there’s so many different emotions that you’re going to go through. And none of them should involve guilt.

[00:43:42] LM: Was there anything that you told yourself or that people said to you when you were guilting yourself that was helpful?

[00:43:53] RB: The statement that’s huge with every therapist or, uh, grief camp. And even everything that I’ve said is that grief isn’t linear. It really isn’t. It’s never going to go away. You just learn to live with it. And that sounds like a negative statement and almost like no hope. But I weirdly find that to be the most helpful.

Because a lot of the times, when you’re going through these emotions, you just want it to go away or feel guilty for it. And you’re like trying, like, “How do I fix this? But, unfortunately, you’re never going to fix it. You learn to live with it. And that can be a beautiful thing.

How I’ve learned to live with it is it’s given me so much perspective on life and like going after things I want and like not taking things too seriously. Because at the end of the day, you never know what’s going to happen next. But you’ll learn how to live with it in a healthy way that works for you.

[00:44:56] LM: You’ve said a few different times in a few different ways that the people who are going to get it are going to get it. And the people who aren’t going to get it aren’t going to get it. And I completely agree. I think it’s so, so true. But also, if I haven’t lost somebody, I would still want to be there for my best friend or my partner or somebody else who is in the process of grief. Is there anything that those people can do to find that empathy or that would be really helpful as an outsider?

[00:45:26] RB: Yes. And I’m actually working on a project and developing something that I think will be very helpful for this in the future. Because this is the biggest question that I get when I share my story, is, like, “Okay, I’m the friend.” What the heck do I do? Like, uh, do I just stand there? Hug? Cry? Laugh? What do I do? And I get that. A couple of things that I always say is you don’t even understand how helpful it is to literally do nothing. To just sit there. To just listen. And you’ll be able to pick up on cues just from that.

When somebody is grieving and going through this loss, their emotions are going to be all over the place. So one day they might want you to bring them their favorite smoothie. The next day, that favorite smoothie may remind them of their mom and make them cry and you’re like, “What the heck is going on?”

So I would say just like actually sit there, be with them, listen, and seek what they need. A lot of the times people will be like, “I’m so sorry for your loss,” which is the best intentions. But instead, I always tell people, I would either ask what can I do for you? Ask them straight up. Like, “What can I do for you right now? Can I just shut up and go in the other room while you’re in your bed crying but still be here on the couch? Can we go do something?” Actually ask them, “What can I do for you?”

And then the second thing is, if you don’t know this person that well and you’re not by their back and call as they’re going through their grief, or it’s been a while, I always say, instead of saying “Oh, I’m like so sorry for your loss.” Be like, “Oh, my gosh. What’s your favorite thing you did with your mom? What did your mom used to do for you on your birthday? What is your mom’s favorite movie?” Ask them questions about their person. Because we live in a world now where it’s like we’re not able to speak about our people.

So by somebody being there for you and wanting to get to know that person more and giving you the opportunity to speak about that person does more than people could ever, ever know.

And then, I would say, as awkward as it is, when you don’t know what to do, maybe even just address that. Be like, “Hey, like, I have no idea what you’re going through right now. Um, but I just want you to know that like I’m here if you want to do something that isn’t sitting on the couch and crying.” Or “Hey, I’ve known you for 20 years. We’ve never ever hugged before. And I want to give you a hug but I feel awkward. What do we do?”

Just speak your feelings. Because the person doesn’t know what to do either. So just like taking the elephant out of the room and being like, “Yeah, this is awkward. Um, what are we going to do about this?” Like, you know what I mean?

There’s a couple things you can do to go about this. Grief is so taboo and isn’t really spoken about enough that it’s forced to be uncomfortable when it doesn’t need to be.

[00:48:40] LM: I think people are often afraid to ask about like what’s your favorite memory with your mom? Whatever. Because they don’t want to make you dwell on something that’s going to be painful. Can you alleviate that fear?

[00:48:50] RB: Yeah. I think that’s the complete opposite. I think what’s the most painful is people forgetting about your person. Not being able to talk about your person anymore. Not having those memories be spoken aloud. That’s what’s painful.

So to be able to speak about. Like when my friends are talking about their moms or like, “Oh, yeah. My mom’s coming into town. We’re going to do this, this and this.” I will never be able to have that conversation like ever. I can’t even say the words my mom. Like, really, in conversation. Because my mom’s not here anymore.

So to be able to give a person that time to speak of whoever they lost is like such a gift and such a joy. But I will say, somebody just lost somebody and they’re crying on the couch and they’re like unconceivable. You’re not going to be like, “Can we talk about your mom more?” Read the cues.

But if it’s somebody that you’re just becoming close with, then it doesn’t need to be something sappy. Just be like, “Um, oh, my God. I can’t even imagine what you’re going through when you went through that. What was your favorite gift your mom ever gave you on Christmas or your birthday?” Or “Did your mom love Boston? Is she from here?” just little things. it doesn’t need to be “What do you miss the most about your person?” You know what I mean?

[00:50:08] LM: Yeah. I love that. Okay. Let’s do a little bit of body image stuff. I have been working really hard to have a better relationship with my body this year. But I have a big vacation coming up with my friends and I’m feeling really anxious about being in a swimsuit all week long. Do you have any tips for getting over that anxiety when you can’t stop thinking about it?

[00:50:32] RB: Um, well, I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I have struggled with body image issues and, um, EDs for as long as I can remember and getting on the Internet, it’s been really, really difficult for me. Because for some reason there’s this narrative about my body on the internet even though I’m not like a fashion girl. I’m not like showing off my outfits or my body or anything like that. And that shouldn’t even be spoken about when that is the case.

But I think it’s just kind of strange because I sit on the couch. I rarely show my body. And when I do, there’s a lot of comments about my body image in a very negative way. And those negative comments are what I say to myself, which is what’s so triggering to me.

So I definitely understand what you’re going through. And I struggle with it as well. I’m still struggling and working through that in therapy. But if there’s anything that I’ve learned, who you are and the things people like about you. And when somebody describes you, a friend’s describing you, or like people’s memories with you, it legitimately has nothing, nothing to do with your looks. Think about your friends. Who was in your inner circle? When you think about them, do you ever, ever think about their body? For me, no. Sometimes like, “Oh, well. She has a banging body. Like, she looks great.” But that’s not what I think about when I think about my friends. I think about our memories, our personalities. Who they are? And none of that has anything to do with body image.

Um, so, as hard as it is, especially in the vacation setting where people are going to be taking photos, something I also do is, when group photos are being taken, I get in a couple of them, you know, for memories. But if I know somebody’s like taking a picture for social media, I kind of opt out of that one if I’m not in the best headspace or feel comfortable. Because I’m like, “You know what? I’ll dwell on that that’ll not really make the trip fun.” Take yourself unfortunately if you’re in a negative head space out of situations, that might trigger you. That’s something that triggers me.

Um, and just remember going on vacation, that is such a blessing. Like, take in your surroundings and be like, “I’m not working right now. I am relaxing.” Try to focus on the things other than your body. Um, but, also, at the same time, have grace for yourself because that is extremely extremely, extremely, extremely hard to do.

[00:53:34] LM: I will say the stuff we were talking about earlier, too, I think all applies here. Like, when you’re 85, would you rather look back on this vacation you took and think, “Oh, my gosh. I had so much fun with my friends. I played volleyball in the beach. I jumped in the waves.” I don’t know what else people do in the beech. I’m not a beach girly. But like I did all the fun stuff in my swimsuit. Or when you’re 85, are you going to be like, “Man, the size of my thighs was really critical for this vacation.” WE’re taught that they matter and they really don’t. And speaking of the Barbie movie and everything else we were talking about earlier, I get really fired up about this stuff. Because a lot of the standards of beauty that we’ve accepted, almost without question as a society, are based on the patriarchy. They’re based on trying to sell this shit. They’re trying to make us feel always inadequate with something. And these things have also changed so much over time. Like what a perfect body is has changed over time. it’s a losing game.

[00:54:34] RB: It’s hard. Because sometimes I’ll get on the right side of the world and social media and I’ll think these things. I’m like, “You know what? Yeah. Like, do I feel the need to be small for this one person?” But then I think about or see examples of those when I was smaller or looked a certain way, I was rewarded for that.

[00:54:57] LM: Yes.

[00:54:59] RB: Or I see people who aren’t the typical beauty standard and they’re being rewarded for it.

[00:55:04] LM: Yes.

[00:55:06] RB: It’s so hard to be like, “You know what? Things are changing.” And they’re great. But then you also still see what you wanted to be rewarded.

[00:55:13] LM: Oh, so true. No.

[00:55:17] RB: When I was a certain size, I was praised more for my appearance or got more guys or jobs or friendships. It’s so hard to be like, “I know when you were unhealthy, you were treated best.” But just don’t do that anymore. And you’re like, “Oh, okay. But I still want to –” It’s such a battle and we are making strides in it. And everything we said is so true. Where, at the end of the day, you could wake up tomorrow and find out something is seriously wrong with your health and you wouldn’t be thinking about your body. There’s so many things you can say to yourself.

[00:55:52] LM: We live in the society that we live in. Like, the society we live in is so real. I was talking about this with my dermatologist yesterday because I was getting all these lasers and botox. I’m starting this whole book tour in the next few months. And I’m like, “I’m going to be seeing my face all the time. I’m going to be on camera all the time.” That’s a hard thing for me to just have to look at myself all the time. So, I’m spending all this money and time trying to make myself palatable for myself to look at.

And she’s like, “Yeah, yeah. But it’s about the ideas. Like, your book is so good. It’s just about the ideas that you’re sharing.” And I’m like, “Yes. But I am also very aware that if I look a certain way when I am sharing those ideas, those ideas are going to be taken more seriously, accepted more.” Et cetera. Et cetera.

So it’s like we have to hold the truth of what is the society that we want to live in? How can we fight to make that society real? But also, like, what is the society that we live in? It’s almost like cognitive dissonance. Like I wish I didn’t give a shit how I looked. But also, I want people to take my ideas seriously. And how I look is part of that.

[00:57:03] RB: I have, uh, such a great community, too. The negative comments are literally foul. But the good comments that come along with it, people are always like, “But we love you for your ideas. We love you for how far you’ve come.” Like it’s the sweetest things. That means so much to me. And I never thought I would be here.

Sometimes they’re tainted by I’m like, “I did this. Or I got this job. Or I got to shoot this. I got on this panel.” And then, like, I’ll get negative comments about my body while I’m doing those things. And I’m like it’s just a never-ending cycle of being like I should be so proud of myself right now.

For accomplishing this or getting to where I am. But in the back of my head, I’m still thinking about the way I look even though the way look has nothing to do with where I got where I am. It’s so hard to ignore. And especially, when you have to see yourself on video, in photos, that is what triggered me to get back into a really negative space. Because I’ll go to this fun event and I’ll be like, “Oh, my God. That was a time in my life. I’m so lucky.” And I’ll get the photos back and I’ll be like, “Oh, my God. I hate myself.”

But at the end of the day, I think that, um, I’m going to be working on this for the rest of my life and that’s something I’m so okay with and I recognize. Um, but the bigger picture is society. And I hope we get to a place where things change. But there’s a lot of change that has to happen. And I don’t know how that would happen.

[00:59:02] LM: Yeah. I think it’s happening. I think it’s it’s a slow process. So that’s why I think it’s like two faceted advice. One, really try to gain perspective on where your body sits in terms of you living in enjoyment, uh, you living an enjoyable life. You don’t let your views of your body as much as possible get in the way of having fun on vacation, enjoying time with your friends, et cetera, et cetera. Your body is for living, not looking, is something I always, always say. And I try to remind myself of that like a mantra as much as possible.

Llook back at yourself from like 85, all these things. But also, recognize that we live in a society that makes these things incredibly hard and give yourself the grace within that. Because I think that both things are true. And it’s one of the many contradictions of being a woman in the world today.

[00:59:54] RB: Yes.

[00:59:56] LM: I’m curious, the time that I find most triggering for my looks is when I’m in these influencer environments where I’m just surrounded by people who are literally paid to be beautiful or acknowledged by society is beautiful all the time. And, like, really do it as a job. And I know that that’s sort of unrelatable. But I think a lot of people get triggered when they’re out with certain friends or kind of like in certain environments. And I’m curious how you deal with that.

[01:00:27] RB: Yeah, that’s a massive trigger for me. Um, I went on my first influencer event in a sense, um, this month. And it was in Fiji, Love Island. So cool. Literally so cool. It was awesome. Um, but I was around extremely beautiful women in bikinis the whole time.

Um, and I was so incredibly triggered. But I will say, I feel like working on myself has helped because I was in Fiji. I’m a girl from New Hampshire. I was like, “I know I don’t like the way I look right now. I know they look literally perfect even sitting down in a bikini. And that will literally never be me.” I’m like, “I’m in Fiji. I have to take this in. I really did do that work of being like this is once in a lifetime. I was having so many gratitude checks.

Um, so I think that when I am in those environments, it is so triggering. This is not relatable whatsoever. But, like, red carpets for me are – I get really bad panic attacks. Um, and I’m really lucky to have some friends, like, Tuffy and Serena Kerrigan who are constantly on these red carpets with me who know this and kind of are there with me, which I’m so grateful for. Um, but I know when I’m in that environment, one, I’m surrounded by everybody who’s literally beautiful. Out of worldly beautiful. And I know that there’s so many cameras going. Like, my job is to stand there and to get critiqued.

Um, and in my head, it’s just such a battle and such a struggle. And it is so extremely triggering for me. So I’ve kind of gotten ahead of that and kind of been like take it for what it is. Have the time of your life. You grew up pretending to be on the red carpet when you were in the third grade in your bedroom. You are that kid now. Love it and like don’t look at Reddit or don’t look at your comments after. And, really, just take it in.

Sometimes people are like, “Don’t look at the comments. Don’t compare yourself.” I’m like, “If you are standing in a room with six supermodels, how do you not compare? It’s in front of your face.” I get it and I follow the advice, too. But easier said than done when it’s in front of your face. It’s so, so hard.

[01:02:48] LM: For sure. I think that there’s something really lovely about you even saying that. Because a lot of people can see you walking a red carpet and be like, “Oh, my gosh. That’s so dreamy.” Everything’s so perfect. She got flown to Fiji for Love Island, blah, blah.

[01:03:04] RB: Yeah.

[01:03:05] LM: And even the people that were pedestalizing are having these insecurities or having these moments or maybe having a panic attack and you don’t even know about it,

[01:03:14] RB: And by the way, in this industry, who I look at and are like, “Oh, my God, you are gorgeous,” struggle as well with image. It’s not just me. Like you were saying, somebody might look at me on the red carpet and be like, “Oh, my God. That’s so cool. Like, that’s amazing. She’s so confident and cool.”

But they wouldn’t know what I’m dealing with in my head. Even the most beautiful girls in the world, um, are struggling the same exact way.

[01:04:14] LM: It’s so helpful to contextualize it that way because literally, it is a game and there are no winners. it’s not like if I get here, I will feel a certain way.

[01:04:24] RB: Yeah.

[01:04:25] LM: Which I think is the thing we’re all guilty of. We’re like, “Oh, if I looked this way, my whole life would be fixed. If I had this much money, whatever.” And then you have access and exposure to those people and they’re still having all the same problems. You’re like, “Oh, oh, okay.” It’s literally, an unwinnable game. So why am I making myself play it?

[01:04:40] RB: And even from a broader spectrum, I’ll meet celebrities or work with celebrities that I’ve looked up to like my entire life. I watched e-news instead of reading Hooked on Phonics. Like, I’ve literally been celeb-obsessed since I was six. Watching the real world. Wanting to be on TV.

I’ll meet these celebrities or see them in-person or be around their circles and I’ll just be like, “Oh, my God I thought that I wanted to be a superstar like my whole life.” And the more I’m around it, the more I’m like, “Oh, my God. That is the complete opposite of what I want.” Because even though they are so blessed financially or living out their dreams, and some of them, they’re made for it. They love it. Some of them I look and I’m like, “I don’t know if they’ll ever fully be happy.” There’s so much that comes with that territory. And there’s so much privilege that comes with that territory as well. And that’s not to be forgotten. But there are certain aspects of the industry and certain aspects of things that I watch these people go through that people would have no idea where I’m like, “Wow. That is a lot.” That I would never want to be in that position.

[01:05:49] LM: I think that being a celebrity sets you up. And you don’t always have to succumb to this. But I think it sets you up to really need more of that external validation and to really have to work very hard to have your self-worth come from inside of you in any sort of way. That can have all sorts of downstream repercussions. Because if you’re not developing an innate sense of self-worth, at any moment, people can take that away from you.

[01:06:18] RB: Definitely.

[01:06:20] LM: Which I think is so tricky. Well, I love this conversation, Robyn. Can you tell everybody a little bit about where they can find you online?

[01:06:25] RB: Yeah. So it’s @girlbosstown, um, on Instagram and on TikTok. On my social media, the type of content that I make, um, half of it is essentially me doing trend forecasting, creative direction and social strategy for brands and celebrities. Um, the other half of it is pop culture coverage. And then, like I said at the beginning of the podcast, I’ll sprinkle in a lot of my personal stories and struggles as well. We have a little bit of everything, um, that I like to cover. Come and join me on there. I would love to see you.

[01:07:23] LM: Well, thank you so much, Robyn. I love this.

[END]